The Business of Hand Surgery

Chuck joins David Wei, a hand surgeon who leads the Business of Hand Surgery Committee at the ASSH, to discuss a variety of topics.  In what is really an interview of Chuck by David, a variety of topics are discussed. David began and leads the BOHS podcast which is an amazing resource of practical business and private practice topics.  We had a great discussion on business school, the Upper Hand Podcast, Leadership education, and a number of other interesting topics.  Check it out after listening to our super fun discussion.  This is also a clear plug for the Hand P Podcast which takes on interesting and challenging issues for hand surgeons!

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Transcript

Charles Goldfarb: 0:00

Chuck, welcome to the upper hand podcast, where Chuck and Chris talk hand surgery.

Chris Dy: 0:09

We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St Louis, here to talk about all things hand surgery related from technical to personal.

Charles Goldfarb: 0:16

Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you in advance for leaving a review and

Chris Dy: 0:20

You can email us at handpodcast@gmail.com so let's a rating that helps us get the world out. It's Chris. I wanted to announce that you have a great episode get to the episode. Hi, upper hand listeners. coming your way today. Chuck met with David Wei from the business of hand surgery committee and the hand P podcast for the American Society for Surgery at the hand. Sorry, I wasn't able to make it. Had a scheduling change that led me to to miss out on what is a great conversation ranging from the business of hand surgery the committee itself, as well as practical day to day aspects, as well as practice development. It sounds like Chuck and David had a great conversation before we get into the episode. Wanted to acknowledge that the upper hand is sponsored by practicelink.com, the most widely used physician job search and career advancement resource. Becoming a physician is hard. Finding the right job doesn't have to be join practice link for free today at www.practicelink.com/theupperhand actually got through that copy without loving it. So there, there you have it. Chuck. And also wanted to acknowledge our other sponsor, checkpoint surgical. The upper hand is sponsored by checkpoint surgical, a provider of innovative solutions for peripheral nerve surgery. Checkpoint invites you to view their latest virtual webinar with the hand society nerve disaster preparedness, prevention and response, how to handle the unexpected iatrogenic injury. Wow. Doctors, Michael Hausman, Steven Koehler and ajula Shaw use a case based approach to review neuroprotective strategies and techniques to avoid iatrogenic nerve injury and how to recognize them during surgery. You can view this on the assh website under industry webinars. So enjoy the episode, and we look forward to getting into another one pretty soon. Keep the upper hand.

David Wei: 1:58

So welcome back to the hand peeped recordings at the ASSH annual meeting in Minneapolis. And I am very happy and honored to have Dr Charles Goldfarb, or Chuck Goldfarb with us. One of the reasons why we thought it'd be great to talk, and I think we were just speaking about how you do have a little bit of a celebrity status now with your your podcast and as the Hand P podcast, I think there's a lot to learn from you, but also be great to discuss the origin of that podcast your work outside of that podcast as well. So I was hoping to just begin first by you telling us where you practice and a little bit about your your own practice first.

Charles Goldfarb: 2:40

I'd like to start by just saying I love what you are doing with this podcast. I think it's super important. There's a lot to share and a lot our members will appreciate, and I know the growth curve has been really positive and will continue in that direction. So thank you, first of all for doing that. I am at Washington University in St Louis, in the department of orthopedics. I've been there my entire career. It's been a really I've been very fortunate to be there. My practice is a little unusual, I guess I would say it's a large portion of kids, if you say like 18 and under, whether that's congenital or post traumatic or traumatic, and then young adults, athletes, primarily with not as much bread and butter as I had in the past. Of my bread and butter, which carpool cubitals, acute fractures in adults, is less so it's a little bit of a sports and kids practice, which feels unusual, but I really like it.

David Wei: 3:39

I appreciate that. And I also want to say, then, as a member of the business of hand surgery committee, you've been a very great contributor to our our work. I wonder, from your position and the fact that you're in an academic place, but you have quite a bit of influence as well, how you see that interplays on the business side of things.

Charles Goldfarb: 4:01

So my father was a private practice head and neck surgeon for his entire career, and for many years, I thought I would join him in head and neck surgery in Birmingham, Alabama, and ultimately, obviously did not. I have a lot of respect for those in private practice. Also have a little bit of jealousy, while I feel like we are on a much bigger ship that's harder to turn we do have some control, but I think private practice physicians, they're dealing with a lot more issues on a daily basis, and so I admire how that works, and recognize the challenges the business aspect of medicine has always been of super interest to me, and I've been fortunate that at Washington University, I've been given many opportunities, and part of it now is certainly running, helping to run the business that we have, which is a huge business, and I have had a long desire to go to business. Which is what I'm doing right now. So I took the GMAT in medical school, and had to delay my delay my satisfaction. I guess Dr government, who was my, one of my first and most important mentors, thought I was getting my business degree through experience, which is certainly somewhat true, but the formal degree I'm about halfway through is

David Wei: 5:18

amazing. And I'm assuming this is like an executive MBA

Charles Goldfarb: 5:22

Yes, an executive MBA at Washington University, which is really a great program, and I've been really happy.

David Wei: 5:28

I wonder if we can dive into that a little bit more. What has been, what has made you happy about it? Yeah?

Charles Goldfarb: 5:33

Well, first of all, for someone who's a little older, being in the classroom and being in a being a recipient of learning, which, of course, we all learn every day, but different kind of learning is amazing. And it's the finance part of it, which I hadn't I was a history major, so the finance part of it's amazing, the leadership skills. Our current section is on global differences in business and how to be successful globally with different cultural issues. I mean, literally, every segment has applicability, even if it doesn't seem direct.

David Wei: 6:10

That's amazing. I have a friend who did something similar, Executive MBA, also a physician. He's a radiologist, but went to the Yale executive program, and I think he had found. And I wonder if you may feel the same way, that there was actually quite a bit of diversity in the group, and part of that was experience of the MBA, like you get to meet these peers, essentially, who come from all these different industries. Have you found that to be true? Also,

Charles Goldfarb: 6:34

yes, for sure, the part of the beauty, and I've learned from all of my classmates, the ones that sort of bring the most interesting lessons, at least for me, are those who are in multi generational family businesses, because they've sort of maybe like the private practice physician, have dealt with things on a daily basis that are just very, very interesting. And I will say that while I'm not the oldest in my class, I am one of the older members of my class. For me, it's the right time to do it like I have accumulated knowledge and experience, and then formalizing it around this education is feels really good. This

David Wei: 7:12

is a topic that I'm glad we landed on, because it's also been something I've been thinking about. And I think the it never seems to be the right time, though, and I wonder how you knew that this was the right time for you.

Charles Goldfarb: 7:23

Yeah, I had this conversation last night at the hand in hand event with another parent whose son was going to medical school and was debating a school that offered a five year program with the MD and MBA. And I said, and he ended up not doing it. I said, I said, I think it's just as well. I think those programs are great, but I don't know that the people are ready for knowledge. And yes, I am a little older, I chose to do it when my children left the house. So my youngest went to college last year, and I started my program. My wife is tolerant and patient, and I will be happy when it's over, because it's a lot, but it's fantastic.

David Wei: 8:05

Yea that's great. What do you envision you would do with this?

Charles Goldfarb: 8:09

My party line is one of three things. I'm either going to continue in my role as executive vice chair of the department with a lot of you know, great opportunity to lead and be strategic, and, you know, be involved in the financial decision. So that's part one. I mean, maybe I'm just better at my day job. Number two is, is at Washington University or somewhere else, have a ultimate leadership position, whether that's in a department or in a hospital system, or finally, really pivot. And I had the fortune of watching one of my previous partners, Ken Yamaguchi, who do this program 10 years ago, and then he pivoted to Centene, the Medicaid management company, huge company as their CMO. And I think that was an amazing experience for him. What's hard, though, is, I think, and most of us will, you know, this will resonate. I love what I do. So giving up the practice in medicine or even cutting it back severely, feels hard.

David Wei: 9:05

Yeah, I think for many of us, I think the reason might be that we've dedicated so much of our lives, essentially, like the majority of our lives, for this practice. But I can see how that can be a hard thing to decide on. Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb: 9:17

I love that you're considering it. It is hard with the family and with the practice and and there's no perfect time, but it's great.

David Wei: 9:26

Yeah, I feel inspired every time I talk to you. So this is another great inspiration for me, if we can. I think the the podcast that you do has has grown in popularity so much so that i i often not you. I often will hear about your celebrity, celebrity status, which you know comes off as very funny, because they are so surprised to meet you, and I can feel their energy when people see your face and hear your voice. How did you land on that? And where did it come from?

Charles Goldfarb: 9:59

It. Um, we certainly weren't new to the concept of podcasting, because we launched in February of 2020, pre pandemic, and we bought the equipment to sit like we are so sort of a mixing board, and we did our first few podcasts that way, in person together at the office, basically when the pandemic hit, we sort of went remote, although occasionally we podcast together. And while Zoom is not the perfect podcasting platform, it's working well for us. We did it because Chris and I thought it would be fun. We were interested to see if we could project our message differently. And I think we've been successful in that we were fearful of a couple of things. One, what you say is on the record, good, bad or ugly and and I think we're okay with that, and it leads to good and hopefully productive inner play with listeners who write in or call in or whatever. And we were fearful about the time, you know, commitment. And we initially were recording four to five times a month, and now we're sort of twice a month recording, which I think has been okay, and it certainly is less of a burden on us, but it's really fun, and having guests on is really fun. So I think we're both enjoying it. Still. One

David Wei: 11:24

of my favorite parts, I think, is the fact that you have your two hosts and you have this interplay. You can tell you can see the friendship. You can see the camaraderie in the in the banter. I also think it's it's great to share your space and your guests and your audience with the hand therapists, which I think are also kind of drawn into your subject matter, but also, I think your personalities. How have you found that in terms of expanding your audience? Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb: 11:49

you know, our audience is interesting. We don't, you know, we have some sense of our audience, because we have a little mailing list, and some people, you know, share some information which helps us tailor what we do. I mean, the therapists are just so important to what we do every day, that it was a no brainer, and we have some amazing therapist and Macy's donor happens to be the one who joins us most typically, she's very articulate and shares complicated concepts in a very simple way. And then when it resonated with the audience, and that's surgeons and therapists alike, it was, it was easy to continue. We've talked about other recurring, you know, themes or guests, and so far, it's just sort of been one off guest, which, again, very fun. We connect with people in a different way. I will say what you do is much harder. Being the sole host is is a lot harder. But because Chris and I can play off each other, and I can take a mental health break for 30 seconds.

David Wei: 12:45

Speaking of mental health break, you know, I find, especially at these meetings, that these interactions, and the kind of human to human interaction is very rejuvenating. But of course, just like you're referring to it is it pays to have time to refocus and do something else besides the podcast. What do you do other than hand surgery? That kind of rejuvenates you?

Charles Goldfarb: 13:06

Right now, it's, it's,

David Wei: 13:09

you must be, yeah, you must be in full MBA mode. I

Charles Goldfarb: 13:12

was gonna say right now. It's not a great question, yeah, right now, it's all, it's all my executive MBA against a fair amount of work. So it's that, it's the podcast I try to be as active as I can be, and I've really taken it as a source of pride that my clinical volume has not decreased much. It's down about eight ish percent over the last year, and I want to keep it there, because I just feel an obligation to patients and my partners not to let that erode,

David Wei: 13:43

of course, well, I think it's oftentimes it helps to hear what you just said, because when you peel back the layers, when you hear about somebody who's very successful in doing many things, how they sort of fit it all in, but it is truly a give and take, and I think that the percent that You talk about is important to make sure that people understand that there is a balance. It's not like you're adding more time to our lives, it's there's some compliment of that. Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb: 14:10

I'm curious as to your answer that question, but I'll start by saying that you know, Peter Stern is from Cincinnati, is where I did my fellowship as one of my mentors, and I've been fortunate to have, you know, amazing mentors, and I do get that that is those relationships, you know, in both directions are that's everything in what we do, and patient care is a privilege, and it's something we should never take for granted. But at some point it doesn't, it's not as exciting as it used to be. And so these other things, whether it's the hand society, whether running an important committee, doing a podcast, or rejuvenating in different ways, takes on more importance. And so I think doing different things to the point of your question is super important. So what other things do you do?

David Wei: 14:58

I appreciate that. I feel. To feel like it's very easy for you to turn this into an interview, since you're so used to being a host, I appreciate that, though I I have found and I also this resonated with a talk that Dr Jim Cheng gave, which was what he has done. And I think what he thinks is important for mental health is like every five years, reassess and reevaluate. And he gave a talk about how you may want to think about pivoting every so often to make sure you kind of keep it going. And most recently, I have now spent more time with the medical records company, a software company, and modernizing medicine, which is kind of one of the growing platforms, specialty specific for orthopedics. But what drew me to that was a combination of themes. It was we switched to the platform, and I kind of helped our practice through that transition, but being the person, the primary person, through that transition during a difficult time, made me realize that there may be opportunities for me to actually make an impact. A lot of our doctors did not like the transition. It was a hard one. And I think understanding the technical aspects of the software, but also the human relationships that required, the change management was important, and I felt like I was in a position where I could kind of handle both, because it's really EMRs are difficult to begin with, but when you switch EMRs, it's really more about how the person reacts to it, a little bit about the software, but also how to convince people to do things a different way, which is very difficult sometimes. Yeah, I

Charles Goldfarb: 16:29

love that the obviously an entrepreneurial spirit, and the business of hand surgery, which is obviously why we're gathered, is so important. I just think all of that stuff is so fun and does re engage you, it uses a different part of your brain. And yeah, I love that.

Unknown: 16:46

I have found also maybe you feel this as well in your department, but and maybe through your MBA experience, you're learning other skills. But I have found that change management as a topic can be very difficult. I wonder what you bring to your department as the executive vice chair that helps you with that

Charles Goldfarb: 17:07

we have, there's a lot of different ways to answer that question. One, I'll start by saying we started what we call leadership for achievement, which is a little bit of a corny name, but maybe five, six years ago, where three or four times a year, we bring in either a business school professor or a leader in orthopedics, and those people come on a Wednesday morning. We have two hours, there's a little pre reading, and we discuss business topics. And those can be soft topics, like networking. They can be change management, they can be leading a team, all of those things. And it's for me especially, it's super fun. It's funny. The residents love it. Love it conceptually. And it's interesting, though, because they get so focused on learning orthopedics that sometimes they're they taking a step back and seeing how important this stuff is, because we don't, we talk about all the time what we don't learn in residency, and businessy topics and life topics are just not a part of it. So I think that would be my main answer, yeah, that's great

David Wei: 18:11

I think bringing the experts in with that advice, that's that's a great way to do it. I think that other topics that we have not learned, obviously, the business side of medicine is difficult to learn during med school or during residency or fellowship, and I think those topics affect us primarily as we get to the middle of our careers, because we kind of go through the process of the clinical aspects and feel like we're more comfortable, and then it becomes more about like, how do we get reimbursed properly? How do we think about the financial side, you mentioned CMO, and I wonder what that means to you, because CMO is a big title. And I wonder if, in your health system, or maybe conceptually, in other health systems, what you think the role and influence that position may have.

Charles Goldfarb: 18:57

Maybe before I answer that, I'll I wanted to jump in when you were talking V i used to give at least one lecture year on coding and billing to the residents. And it just it's not of interest to most of them until either the very end of their chief year or until the very end of their fellowship year. And it is one of those topics that the more you hear it, the easier it is. But no one's interested in it early. And Marty Boyer and I have been for a number of years giving our fellows sort of a life money talk, which is funny. We discussed that a little bit in the business of hand surgery meeting yesterday, and it's super fun for us. And I think it's always interesting to me the questions that are asked, and so that part of it is it is asking a lot of residents and fellows to take a step back from all they have to learn about orthopedics and medicine and really engage in stuff that is equally as important. So that part is brilliant. What

David Wei: 19:57

do you can we get into that do? What is. What would you say are the top three points you make with the life money part?

Charles Goldfarb: 20:04

The first Well, funny, I have a list and Marty has a list. They don't always say the same thing, but I would say both of us agree that you cannot be smarter than people who do this for a living, and so as a doctor, don't overestimate your ability to beat the market and be willing to pay for good advice with a fiduciary who will look out for you. Because I think what I see, and have seen, are doctors who think they are smarter than they are in that domain, right? That's number one, the

David Wei: 20:39

flip side of that point, like the white coat investor, he's a strong, I would say, proponent of not having a advisor. What do you think of that?

Charles Goldfarb: 20:49

I think if you are doing a very straightforward approach, and I'm not saying that that's the wrong approach, in fact, my approach is still straightforward, but with other advisors, I think it's fine, but you have to if you're going to do that, then I would say at least half a day, twice a year. I don't know what his advice specifically is, half a day twice a year, don't work, and spend four to six hours figuring out how to rebalance and reconsider opportunities and think about, you know, a trust development, all the other things I think you have to commit time to, because we're certainly, if you're in medicine, you're smart enough to figure those things out, but you have to commit the time, and you're not smart enough to beat the market. I would say that strongly. So

David Wei: 21:32

we shouldn't all just buy Nvidia.

Charles Goldfarb: 21:35

Oh my god yes. Or maybe it's time to sell

Unknown: 21:38

That's great. I Well, what did you think about the CMO Nvidia. question

Charles Goldfarb: 21:43

Yeah, thank you. So there are some parts I think every cmo job is different, and there are some parts of the CMO job that don't necessarily appeal to me. And that's a very personal statement. You know, I patient, safety and quality are super important topics. They're just not topics that I want to go that deep on in my career. The financial aspect of CMO, of a system or other title positions, are far more interesting to me. I think, to be an effective CMO, it's a really unique skill set and a really unique background and understanding, and for an orthopedic surgeon to step into that role takes a lot, and so it sounds a little daunting, especially on the quality and safety in the non surgical fields,

Unknown: 22:33

I have found also, and this is kind of a 30,000 foot view of things, that if you have someone in a large health system, which we are sort of all moving towards, you know, consolidated healthcare, that at the in the hierarchy of people who help run the system, that if there are not enough people who influence that system, that come from below, the system starts to veer off course a bit. And a kind of soft way of putting it, I also think that that's probably the reason why it is so important for an orthopedic surgeon or a clinical person to be in those roles. Do you also, do you agree with that? Or what do you think? I 100% agree with that

Charles Goldfarb: 23:12

And it's always nice for me to see when there's a physician leader of a major hospital system. The business world, analogy is, to me, very straightforward. And it's Boeing, Boeing as a company for many, many years before they merged with McDonnell Douglas. And this is the orthopedic surgeon. Take on this with some, with some, you know, readings when they they used to be an engineering driven company, and they sort of, it seems like lost their way when it became an accountant driven company, and Boeing's in serious trouble. And so it's a really interesting series of cases and concepts. And so to your point, if physicians aren't involved in the leadership of systems. I don't think it's a recipe for success

David Wei: 24:05

in our training. There's I had two questions from your response in our training. I think that the leadership skills that we develop, sort of maybe organically, are not so apparent. What do you say to your fellows, or maybe your trainees, that helps cultivate those leadership skills. I know you have these Wednesday meetings that sound amazing. Do you do anything else in addition just trying to propel those people into those positions, or even your your fellow orthopedic surgeons? Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb: 24:34

I think that it's to your point earlier, when one is starting out your focus. So Young surgeons should focus on patient, care and surgery, but at different paces, you sort of get over that hump. And it doesn't mean there aren't still things that challenge you, and hopefully it's throughout your career, but when you're ready for something different, the impact one can have in a more leadership role is incredible, and. And so, sir, it becomes clear who is interested in that. And so we have now about 80 surgeons and 2025 non operatives and and another 25 a PPS in our department. And I feel like I know every single person pretty well and understand what he or she is looking for. And it's always different. But when you see that person who you know has the interest, then I'll do anything and everything to engage them, because it's just, it's good for everyone. It's good for that person, because they get to go down that pathway, and it's good for the department and my partners. I think I

David Wei: 25:35

know the answer to this question, but if I can, I think when you run a large department like that, or any organization with hundreds of people, in your case, more than 100 people, the culture of the place can be vital to sustaining the impact that you have on your patients, but also maintaining the people who want to be involved. So there's not a lot of churn or turnover with your staff as maybe as true for doctors as it is for your apps and for the front staff, let's say, what do you do in your case to develop that culture and sustain it?

Charles Goldfarb: 26:08

This became a bigger issue for all of us with the pandemic, and I don't think we obviously talked about culture and thought about culture pre pandemic, but it took on a whole new meaning, and we talk about it all the time now, and it is a, you know, we're lucky in our world, because we we are clearly a mission driven organization and people. Our mission is healthcare, and there's no more noble mission than that, in my opinion, I don't know that all of us. So we have 650 it all in when you 650 so 450 plus staff, I don't know that each of those individuals feels that mission as much as you and I might. And so part of our goal is to make everyone you know feel directly a part of the mission and connect and not have a sort of a separation of you know, direct caregivers and supporting staff, and really have everyone in it together. And while we're not perfect in that that's sort of the goal.

David Wei: 27:08

Yeah, I think that in today's market, it can be difficult, especially on the private practice side, we see this turnover, because it's just a sort of a symptom of the larger problem with inflation, and also, I think the fact that we're squeezed as private practices, and we have a hard time passing on fair fair remuneration for our employees, because we're also squeezed at the same time. Do you see that too from the budget side in your department? How does it affect it,

Charles Goldfarb: 27:38

for sure, yeah, inflation, and it's just the increased cost of everything combined with, at least in our case, the declining commercial insurance payers, is a really challenging mix with Medicare cuts on top of that, both last year and presumably this coming year. It's really tough. The flip side, of course, is that we all think, first of our own compensation, which is understandable. Most of us are, I think would feel, and should feel, very fortunate with whatever compensation we have, and we haven't yet had to sort of compromise that. But ultimately, I don't know. I mean, we you can't go into I feel strongly you should not go into medicine to get rich. I think some people do, and I think that's a recipe for disaster. And I think fairly compensating physicians and each of the staff members is a really hard balance, but it has to be a balance that we look for.

Unknown: 28:38

You mentioned you're doing some reading about Boeing, but I'm interested in also hearing what are the books that you've found helpful in your journey through being an orthopedic surgeon, being a leadership in a leadership position. What have you read that you've liked?

Charles Goldfarb: 28:51

You should have prepped me on this. I could have brought a list. The one I go back to which I talk about to people is a guy named Clayton Christensen, who was a Harvard Business School professor, passed away younger than you may have hoped. He had a lot to teach. He one of his first books was, what was it called, The Entrepreneur's dilemma. But the book I the book I like most, is called, how will you measure your life? And I don't know if you've read it, there's a simplified kind of HBr, you know, 10 page article, but the book itself, to me, is fantastic. And it really gets to the point, you know, how are you going to assess things? And you know, when you look back on your life, what do you hope you will have accomplished? And I think it tells a really important story. I was as I was walking over here, I ran to indie Weiland, and we actually had a very brief conversation about this and how he recognizes. I was going to say now, maybe you recognize it all along, but he recognized now that it's the people that you touch, rather than the titles or the accolades that really mean more with each year. But I love that book. And would recommend it highly.

Unknown: 30:01

What is the name of it again?

Charles Goldfarb: 30:02

How will you measure your life, Clayton Christenson

David Wei: 30:06

to push back, or perhaps just to respond to that it would it be true to say that is this only after reflection, having been through perhaps all the achievements and accolades already obtained that you can say that in reflection.

Charles Goldfarb: 30:22

Well, that's kind of you to say that. I don't, I don't, you know, some people have, and Chris Dy will talk about a five year plan as you lose you or a 10 year plan. I've never functioned that way, and I don't have specific titled goals or anything like that. That's just not how I operate. And so I like to think that I have been very fortunate with the opportunities that I've been given, but I do think I've always appreciated that it's not about that, and there's many reasons for that, one being I have a very grounded and grounded and grounding wife who's highly accomplished in her own right, but helps me. Can I ask? What does she do? Yes, she has a far more interesting story than maybe she could be a guest. So she was a in her previous life. She was a social worker, worked with kids in city schools, and when my med student, son, is now, 25 was potty training. He couldn't keep his pants up. And so she, with her sister, invented a belt which grounds to the first belt loop and then becomes a one handed belt which kids can fasten themselves. And so that led to a huge business selling belts with initially, you know, this was really before Amazon. So it was back in 2002 across the world, many 1000s of stores, amazing, and then pivoting to really an Amazon dominated business and and she was on Shark Tank at one point, and she sold the business, and now she does consulting for entrepreneurs. Yeah, she's great.

Unknown: 32:00

Wow. What a story. I had no idea this great story. I should probably get one of those belts for my two year old. Yes, well, I think this has been fascinating. I welcome questions from you. You know you are an experienced podcast host, and I wonder what questions you may have. Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb: 32:20

I wonder, obviously, I really appreciate the committee work and love the concept of this podcast. And I wonder how much engagement you feel the podcast has, and what if anything have you done, or do you hope to do to further the engagement? Because some people say, Well, wait a second, you know, there are hand side is doing podcasts. I'm like, That's great. Like, I think it's we need more of it in the space. So I'm curious, as you know, what you hope and how you hope to build it. Thanks

Unknown: 32:48

for that. I think that we need to reach more members, because I think we have such a deep source of knowledge from all the experts that exist in our society that this is really meant to help spread some of that expertise in a way that's more modern, that's not so based on these annual meetings, which are sort of these centralized areas where people can meet, but we hope to spread this throughout the year. One of the reasons why I think it's important for us to spread this word is I think a lot of this can be membership specific knowledge, but there are also opportunities, I think, for us to expand. Perhaps this episode, for example, might be a good one to share so people can understand the things that you may deal with as in your leadership position. But to answer your question more directly, I think that we should share our episodes more publicly, I think that it should also it's our responsibility to decrease the the inertia that's required to get to these episodes. And I also think when people source them, that some may have time for videos and some may have time for audio. So I think we have to kind of get to both audiences.

Charles Goldfarb: 34:00

Yeah, and it Well, I think our podcast has a wide age range. It certainly seems it's easier to connect with younger professionals, and maybe it's just a more meaningful platform for those younger professionals, because when we started, we weren't certain that an audio podcast would sufficiently convey the things we wanted to convey. It clearly has. And then adding the video component, I don't know if it adds that much, but it's just some people, to your point, prefer that, but engaging the younger generation, I think, is really where this at. And whoever that's not in the younger generation that joins the ride, I think all the better. Yeah,

Unknown: 34:38

Well, this has been great. It's been great. It's been great. Appreciate your time. Thanks, super fun. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Charles Goldfarb: 34:44

Hey, Chris, that was fun. Let's do it again real soon. Sounds

Chris Dy: 34:48

good? Well, be sure to email us with topic suggestions and feedback. You can reach us at handpodcast@gmail.com,

Charles Goldfarb: 34:54

and remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and

Chris Dy: 34:58

be sure to leave a review. That helps us get the word out.

Charles Goldfarb: 35:02

Special, thanks to Peter Martin for the amazing music, and

Chris Dy: 35:06

remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time you