Episode 30, Season 2: Chuck and Chris talk vacations- the science and the practice. Using HBR references (HBR Article : We All Really Need a Vacation. Here’s How to Make the Most of It. by Art Markman. May 12, 2021) and our own experience/ challenges, we discuss the need for vacation, making the most of the vacation and some of the questions we all consider such as:
Do you work on vacation?
Do you answer emails and if you do, when?
How do you prepare for re- entry?
Do you leave an out of office email?
How do you handle postoperative patients?
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.
Survey Link:
Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz
Episode 30, Season 2: Chuck and Chris talk vacations- the science and the practice. Using HBR references (HBR Article : We All Really Need a Vacation. Here’s How to Make the Most of It. by Art Markman. May 12, 2021) and our own experience/ challenges, we discuss the need for vacation, making the most of the vacation and some of the questions we all consider such as:
Do you work on vacation?
Do you answer emails and if you do, when?
How do you prepare for re- entry?
Do you leave an out of office email?
How do you handle postoperative patients?
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.
Survey Link:
Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz
Welcome to the upper hand where Chuck and Chris talk hand surgery.
Chris Dy:We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all aspects of hand surgery from technical to personal.
Charles Goldfarb:Thank you for subscribing. Wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Dy:And be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, hey, Chris.
Chris Dy:Hey, Chuck, how are you?
Charles Goldfarb:I'm doing great. It's a weekend and I'm in my basement looks like you're in a basement too.
Chris Dy:I am in a basement. And Funny enough, I was in a basement here this morning. Actually, we have been having some fun zoom time we had our I'm in a travel club of other hand Surgeons of my generation. So nobody old like you. But we got together on zoom this morning. It was great. And everybody was catching up. And somebody was talking about how they just bought a beach home. And I was like, well, you have two homes and I currently have zero homes. So I'm living in my friend's basement right now. Or we our family is living in their basement now because we sold our house when we closed, which is great. But we are still waiting for our new place to be done.
Charles Goldfarb:Wow, when was your new place supposed to be done?
Chris Dy:Two months ago?
Charles Goldfarb:Wow, are there penalties built in for the builder?
Chris Dy:Uhh we thought about doing that. But I also didn't want them to rush in terms of taking shortcuts. And it's obviously a very delicate relationship to balance. You know, you're you're paying you're going to be paying somebody or under contract for the finished product. Although we have had our hands in the, you know, the design of the renovations and the additions. So it's kind of an interesting situation in which we kind of bought it early, put down more earnest money on it than probably required, but that way we got some customization options.
Charles Goldfarb:And what's the ETA?
Chris Dy:I don't know. I'm hoping we only have a couple more episodes after doing my friend's basement, although he's got a great ring light and his Internet's awesome. So it's working out okay.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, Lord. I'm not judging all time by episode or episodes recorded.
Chris Dy:No, but the the kids have been playing and stuff. And they're, you know, it's been fun. The novelty is still there. Let's hope that we don't outstay our welcome. We're always ready to pivot to the old Homewood suites.
Charles Goldfarb:Perfect. Well, you know, you were going to talk a little business, see what sort of business talk today. And I understand you had a special guest to your travel club today along those same lines?
Chris Dy:Yeah, so um, esteemed Distinguished Professor Ken Yamaguchi, from our department came and was our speaker. And he gave a great talk on a couple topics. One was on managing teams. And the other was just on essential leadership principles. And I thought they were great. And I was, I've been fortunate enough to have Ken as a mentor for, for me personally since starting at WashU. And it's been really useful to meet with him on a regular basis. I, at this point, we've kind of phased out the regular meetings, but for the first five years of my practices were incredibly helpful. It's good to have a sounding board outside of the hands service. And with the context of him also having gone after our one funding and doing all those things. And he clearly has a different role now as the Chief Medical Officer of Centene. But he still does some clinical activity at Wash U and it was great catching up and hearing him share his knowledge.
Charles Goldfarb:I bet it was I bet it was it does resonate. As you know, I'm putting together the upcoming year, what we call leadership for achievement, which is our department's formal leadership educational process. And we have three, three great business school professors coming over to discuss various different topics and actually had a meeting this week on finalizing those. So I enjoy those lessons and certainly have a lot to learn. So I'm a little jealous.
Chris Dy:I'm well, I'm looking forward to this year's leadership for achievement. You know, some of the feedback we got from our fellows, our hand fellows this year was the request for more leadership training. So it's going to be great to be able to work in some of those leadership for achievement talks into their fellowship. So we're looking forward to to having that's great to have in our department. I did manage to make it through the entire travel club meeting without plugging the podcast. I don't know what I was thinking though.
Charles Goldfarb:Managed? We managed to avoid plugging. How could you let that happen? What an opportunity wasted.
Chris Dy:An opportunity wasted. I'm pretty sure I know that Micah Sinclair listen so shout out to Micah. Thanks for always listening to us. You probably don't get, you probably get too much of us because you also join us for Monday morning conference and we love having you.
Charles Goldfarb:That is true well maybe we do one more thing before we jump into the podcast which I think is going to be really fun. Any any reviews to share.
Chris Dy:We have a great review a great review from a wonderful person that's known to many on social media. Mike Galvez. So Mike, I actually met with Mike one time at an ASSH meeting because I saw he was doing all this really cool mentoring stuff on social media. And I just wanted to see kind of what his vibe was and where he was going with it. And he has an incredible reach an incredible following. And Mike I mean, the work you're doing in mentoring undergrads, medical students, residents, it's incredible. So I'm flattered that you left us this great review five stars again, the only option, of course, and it says that subject is feels like I'm doing a mini fellowship at Wash U, which, honestly, that in and of itself is kind of our goal, I think, are one of the unstated goals. And he goes on to write very kindly, it's great to have a relatable podcast where the nuances of hand trauma sports congenital and nerve nerding, out, all come together. The bonuses of hearing the challenges of being in practice are helpful, especially for those of us early in our careers. We all have mentors and colleagues, but it's fantastic to hear the experience and thoughtfulness from you both. Gracias.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, that's great. And I have not met Mike in person, I do recognize that he is really does a nice job on social media, we have shared a patient, and he was beyond, you know, helpful and supportive in that process. So I look forward to meeting him hopefully the next hand society meeting.
Chris Dy:Well, you that you have some shared lineage, I believe he spent some time down at Texas Scottish Rite, I know that you spent a little bit of time hanging out down there. And he actually helped you out a little bit with your Spanish by throwing in that gracias at the end there. So I'll let you throw in your de nada.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, we're not gonna talk about how my Spanish is coming. But let's talk about something fun. How about that?
Chris Dy:Well, it's it's summertime, which, you know, I think this year, but obviously, pre COVID years, especially, typically means vacation. So let's talk a little bit about vacation and the importance of it. I mean, when was the last vacation that a true vacation that you really took?
Charles Goldfarb:So our last family vacation, and let me be very clear. There's no mixing meetings with vacation for me. And my, my wife has just not been supportive of that. She doesn't come with me to meetings for the most part. And so it's really a vacation is a vacation and a work meeting's a work meeting. And so when I think vacation, occasionally my wife and I have been fortunate enough to get away. But the real last family vacation as I think about it was pre pandemic, December of 2019. We we did something super fun. We went to Costa Rica, so that was fantastic. What about you?
Chris Dy:Um, I think the last I mean, the last one we did was when we went down to Houston a few weeks ago, it was kind of a weird kind of time for vacation. I mean, we were spending some time with family down there and honestly helping get everything tidy it up and my my father in law's house. So my last vacation was spent doing a lot of packing. And then I can't really remember a true I guess I could look back like a true true vacation before that. We've had some plan. But then obviously, the pandemic has changed that. We've done like some kind of long weekend away kind of things, just driving to places from here. And those have left me very recharged. We've talked about it on kind of the intro on some of the prior podcasts about kind of that four day weekend being so great.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I, and we're gonna get into this, and some of the science behind it. I do appreciate those long weekends. I don't know that I've I feel I think there's worth and there's value in those type of longer weekends. But I really do think a week at a minimum, not that I've ever taken more than a week. But I think a week is what really helps me to recharge.
Chris Dy:So that everybody understands the context. How much vacation Do you think you take in a year? And how has that changed over time since you started working as a as an attending back in the early aughts? So how has that changed as your family has grown as your practice has evolved?
Charles Goldfarb:Well, certainly the the type of vacation we consider is very different with older kids, you know, my kids are in college or nearly there. And we can do just amazingly different things very outdoorsy, very hiking, centered or travel kind of anywhere and everything. And that's been a priority for our family. I feel like my wife and I both agree that tried to expose our kids to different cultures as part of what we want to do. But to get to your question, I think it's probably a sensitive one that my wife and I have discussed in that. I don't do well on the vacant taking sufficient vacation. As I recall, we get about 20 days a year 20 work days a year, maybe 22 work days a year. And I've never taken that.
Chris Dy:Roughly roughly four weeks, right if you put business days?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, roughly four weeks. I think I've taken three good weeks before. I've never taken four. What about you?
Chris Dy:I think pre pandemic the most I've done is three And then I think what it ends up averaging to is like two really good weeks. But then also days tacked on here and there on like holiday weekends kind of or something like that.
Charles Goldfarb:And have you ever taken more than a good full week?
Chris Dy:In, in residency. Well, it was one of those things where, you know, my wife and I were both residents at the same time. So we always try to like finesse our vacation schedules, which you know, is possible in some programs and impossible and other programs. And we kind of, I was able to finesse it one time where it was the last week off of one rotation and the first week off of a different rotation. And it was an amazing time, but it was a little hard to get back.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, and that's always the give and take, right, the longer you take, the harder it is. It's hard taking one week, you know, you pay for it before you pay for it after. But you know, some of our partners have taken two weeks and, and I get it because it absolutely takes me a couple of days to wind down and stop thinking about work and get into the vacation mindset. And then the last couple of days are usually spent with anxiety over getting that anxiety but you know, thinking about work?
Chris Dy:Well, that's one of the things that they mentioned in the article that we're going to talk about is, you know, how do you truly unplug? And you know, how do you manage ramping back up? I mean, you know, I recently even coming back from Houston, I certainly paid for that when I came back, you know, my first clinics were completely overbooked. And that also in a way, like sometimes your case volume goes down, because you're not seeing fractures the week before. So it's just you know, for somebody who's still in that kind of, you know, tenuous practice building phase, you definitely notice a difference. And I'm sure our colleagues that are in private practice are employed models will feel the same way to not just an academics.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, I think it's universal. For sure. I yeah, I think it's about for, you know, what I think was I think about vacations. It's really just having control of my time. And of course, every resident and fellow out there is thinking, well, you have control of your time, we do not, but even I don't know how you feel, but I don't feel like I have complete control of my time and my schedule. And, you know, for example, I did a really interesting case we'll talk about sometime in the future, last Wednesday, and then I called the family Wednesday night, as I do and sounded a little precarious that pain was under great control. And I talked to him again that night, and at the end up coming back to the hospital, and, you know, wasn't on call. But these are just the things that we do and so on vacation, while those problems don't always go away. I just feel like it allows me to refocus, I read a lot more, I'm more active. So how do you think about your goals, I guess, during a vacation?
Chris Dy:Well, I mean, you know, I honestly, I really do. I know it's a good vacation, when I've been able to sit down and read a book. Like real, if when I get to that point, that means that I'm in like, absolute chill mode. You know, if it was up to me, and I'll ask you the same thing. I mean, I think that my wife pushes me in a different direction, which is good. If it was up to me, I probably would just park myself on a beach and sit on the beach and try to just sit and read, read books. And she has, I think in a good way kind of pushed us towards exploring new cities and exploring environments and all this stuff and kind of getting up off of our behinds. Because I feel like before I met my wife, I probably would have been the type of person and there's nothing against this kind of person who would go to the same place every time and have the same routine on vacation and just completely unwind.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, I could not agree more. I, you know, we are very fortunate in the opportunities that we are provided as physicians, and having, you know, kids. And so I as I mentioned, I think it is something that my wife and I take seriously to try to expose our kids to other cultures, the joy of travel, learning new things, it is a very different vacation. So later, this coming week, I'm going to go up to New Hampshire and hang out with my wife and her family. And that'll be a quieter vacation, because my kids are older, I will have time to read and I'll work out every day and that'll be great. The vacations where we are traveling are not quite as restful, on a physical standpoint, but I think mentally they're more restful because it requires that I check out completely. If I'm sitting there reading a book on the lake or you know, even running then somehow or another certainly on day one and to work is in my mind by day three and four less so but the doing of something completely different in a different culture a different environment requires my attention, which is good.
Chris Dy:Well, that's that's like one of those things about the staycation, right like the staycation seems like it's gonna be fantastic. You save a ton of dough. You don't have to do a ton Planning but then you're still immersed in your world. And and On a related note, like, you know, one of the great things about our fellowship in the pre pandemic, part of it was that we would send you to India to learn microsurgery. And yes, it's the same exact course you would get if you did the Acland course or formed the Acland principles in Louisville, or you went to the great Columbia micro course of the great Mayo micro courses, same thing. But the fact that you are completely immersed in that that is the only thing on your mind, your phone doesn't get service, you're you're literally half a world away. I found that personally, when I did that as a fellow to be tremendously helpful to just really focus in on the microsurgery really focus on seeing all the wonderful things that they do in coimbatore at Ganga hospital. That immersive experience helps because there's nothing else on your mind. You can't worry about patients, you can't worry about other things. Because, you know, that's the only year we're in India. So I think there's absolute value to that. For sure.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, and we I think we've talked about this what I miss most about playing basketball as I've gotten so frickin old is it I don't have that immersive athletic experience. Because whether I'm biking or running, or whatever I may be doing my mind can wander when you're all in on some activity. And for me, if I'm in a foreign land with a foreign language, I'm like, you know, just trying to survive. You can't think about anything else. And immersion is good version is good.
Chris Dy:So for the record, when did you start playing ball because I remember, I remember when I was a fellow and an early on in practice, I always hear from like random people, man like Goldfarb ball. Like you were part of these games that like either the center of Clayton or some gym on the medical school campus that probably doesn't exist anymore. That you were you were hanging, like, Tell me Tell us a little. I know, this is not the topic, but I want this on record about the Goldfarb basketball experience.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, for me, it was a combination of factors. I don't like to think it was the the game going south. Sure. That was part of it. Now it was, it was a combination of injuries with a lack of serious injuries. And limp. You know, the nurses. I remember I used to play on Tuesdays and Fridays at 6am. It was happened to be my Shriners Hospital days, which, early in my career, I didn't have 6am meetings every day. And so I could play ball at six and go to the Shriners Hospital. It was perfect. But I've always loved her. And the nurses were always giving me grief even when I was young that would live around. So at some point, it just became not worth it. And I missed the hanging out and I miss the immersion. I don't miss everything else.
Chris Dy:Well, your Achilles tendons thank you for not continuing down that path. So who who plans who plans vacations and the goal for our family? Like do you guys you and Talia, set aside the time together on the calendar? And then you know, who decides where to go and what kind of vacation it's going to be and then execute the plan or develops a plan and execute it?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I have to say I am. I'm lucky in that Talia, I think I can say she enjoys it. She does most of the planning. We'll talk about where we want to go and what we want to do. So what cities we want to see what are important sites to see if we're going overseas. The logistics, I think she has taken ownership of more, which I appreciate. I like to be a follower on vacation in large part. And thankfully, you know, she's allowed me to do that. Certainly, there are certain responsibilities that are mine, which is like driving overseas would be me if we're going to drive and, and things like that. But now we have it's a good. It's definitely a mutual planning experience. But I don't plan the details and try to sit back. What about you?
Chris Dy:We set aside the dates together. And then Tiffany does the rest. She's really good. It's actually funny. One of the first trips we took as a couple was to New York City, which got us hooked on New York and got us lightning and let's do our residency there. And I planned everything. We still have the itinerary and I think it's the last trip she let me completely plan because she has taken over. She's a pro. She honestly could be a travel agent and a different life. One question I had for you is do you take less or more vacation now than you did when you started? And when as on a parenting note when is it stopped becoming traveling with kids and more taking vacation?
Charles Goldfarb:I think when I think about the last quote unquote vacation that still felt like cash, we can't quite do everything because of the age of our kids. And it was we went to Sedona one, I think it was spring break to hike and we went to other parts of Arizona as well. And the two older kids would just you know, run ahead and do what they wanted to do and in may see was probably Macy who's 16 now was probably 10 ish, and she certainly could more than keep up more than keep up but they're still Things we probably didn't do. I think once 10 11 12 it becomes traveling with three adults. So the five of us, you know, have without any limitations or hesitations, and in fact, the limitations and hesitations are more those of Talia and myself rather than than the kids. And so it's a totally different world. Totally.
Chris Dy:So we're going to talk, we started thinking about this topic, because, you know, we're both on the old HBR listserv, and we got this article that came out. And for those of you that are paying attention at home and want to read it, it's the reprint number is h06cew. So one of the they go through a series of principles about vacation. And one of the things in there is the plan at least three months in advance, do you feel I mean, honestly, for a surgeon scheduled three months advance is great. I remember Rick Wright saying, I can do anything in terms of scheduling, just give me at least six weeks.
Charles Goldfarb:For sure. I so first of all, plan, plan plan, you know, it's too valuable time to not have everything planned out. And I will say that doesn't mean that there are parts of a day that are that are not scheduled. But everything is planned. So where you're going to be how you're going to get there, where you're gonna stay, the key things you got to do. But absolutely, we probably look for six months in advance, pick a time pick a place and get going on.
Chris Dy:So how much of that planning thing do you think is just making sure that you get the most out of it versus wanting to look forward to it, like having it set in stone saying like, okay, the weeks are, you know, taking down the weeks here?
Charles Goldfarb:Absolutely, and absolutely didn't talk could not agree more. And at the risk of seeming like the dorky Father, you know, one of the things that we asked our kids to do was to read up on something about the spot that we're traveling to, and I may have mentioned this to you before, and.
Chris Dy:No, you have mentioned that that's really interesting.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah. So if at some point, it was a PowerPoint, don't judge me.
Chris Dy:Oh, that is that is gold that is classic Goldfarb.
Charles Goldfarb:It's rich, it's rich. But you know, it was like, Alright, if we're going to Italy, pick a site and teach me something about it. And that can be verbally or whatever you want to do, but really own a site. And then when we get to that site, kind of take take the take the lead on it. And that's worked really well.
Chris Dy:So do you make them take out the laptop and start advancing the slides as they're at the Basilica?
Charles Goldfarb:No, definitely not. When Talia used to travel with a child, they would stop at every one of those little landmark signs and read them aloud as a group. So we do not travel like that. But I think, to your point, the excitement is part of the joy.
Chris Dy:Having having made 12 weeks worth of your indications PowerPoints as your fellow I definitely feel for your kids. And I'm sure I'm sure future and former fellows can relate to that one.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, Lord, I gotta sound terrible. This podcast, this is not like it seems to all the way.
Chris Dy:So do you? Do you take at least a week off all the time, because that was one of the principles in this article was to take a week off, because that's the amount of time it requires for you to wind down and truly settle into vacation mode?
Charles Goldfarb:I do. I think a week is almost required. Although I will say this chip, upcoming trip to New Hampshire is more like five days for logistical reasons, but I really didn't think the week is it really is the right length a week, seven or 10 days would be even better. And I think still manageable. But I believe in that. Do you agree as well?
Chris Dy:Yeah, I think that's I like that, you know, it's valuable time, you might as well make the most of it, especially if you're traveling. And I think you know, one of the other principles here is and we talked about earlier, is needing to go somewhere, not home. And if obviously, we have the luxury of being able to do that, and the means to do it. And I think that helps. because inevitably, when you're at home, you always find something to do either in the house or it reminds you of something you know, you're just not unplugged. And I think that is important.
Charles Goldfarb:And I agree. One of the articles made the point of, you know, if you are say you're leaving on Sunday night for your week, and you work on Friday, and maybe you don't have work on Saturday, you know, when does your vacation start? does it start on Saturday morning, Friday night? does it start on Sunday mornings, it start when you get on the airplane, if you're flying, there's different ways to think about it. Each of them have, you know, benefits and negatives if you wait to start your vacation to get on the airplane, which is kind of how I've thought about it. To be honest, I don't think that's necessarily the right approach because then you start the wind down, then you start getting ready for your week and you kind of lost something if you're able to start it earlier and maybe it's just doing stuff around the house before you get on that plane that day or the next day. But it does, I think accelerate your ability to get into the vacation mode.
Chris Dy:Do You Do you find that you have this kind of pre vacation anxiety of like having to get a bunch of stuff done before you go? So that you feel like you can unwind? Or, you know, do you not think about that?
Charles Goldfarb:Absolutely. Right, I have a list of like 10 things I need to get done this weekend. So that I don't have these things hanging over my head. Now. By the time Tuesday comes, there probably will be 10 more, but at least there won't be 20.
Chris Dy:That's how I think about it. Or for the record recording this episode is one of those things.
Charles Goldfarb:Check. I love it. And then and then really, for us mean for anyone in the world. But I think really for us, it really is disconnecting from your phone from your computer from your email as possible. We'll talk about that in a second. I really think that's incredibly valuable.
Chris Dy:So what do you if just from our practice management perspective? How do you prepare? How do you prepare your practice for that I actually remember a funny anecdote, and you may not remember this. Originally, I was, well, at the beginning of practice, I went to Taiwan. And I hung out in Taiwan for about three weeks. And I guess that's a time that I've been away more than two weeks. But I don't consider that vacation. It was work. It was enjoyable work. But it was work. And before going to Taiwan, I had just kind of thought, well, I probably shouldn't see new patients right now, right before leaving, because it doesn't make a lot of sense to see new patients and then say, Okay, I gotta go hang out and see my partners. And I remember, my MA had like, sent that out, and then you immediately email their vaccine, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Dr. Dy did not see new patients right now. He should continue to see new patients and his partners are available if he needs anything.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, it's just it's too big of a hit if you don't, and I think.
Chris Dy:And now I see it. You're absolutely right.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah. Cuz then you're taking a two week hit or whatever the magic number is. But you know, we are so lucky. And I say this all the time. And and Lindley Wall was at a town and one of her patients had a new problem, develop an the emergency room was calling to ask if that patient be seen, and I ended up seeing the patient this week. But we are so lucky that we have partners we trust. And even more important than that, partners who we know will do a great job of taking care of any patient. And so that makes it easy. So I do not change anything about my scheduling criteria, the week before a vacation. And I do admit I will try to scramble or add cases on before I leave town. But I also though kind of further along I get the more, the more content, I am handing those patients off, because I think it's a win win.
Chris Dy:And then when you're when you're away, and you know that you have patients who are due to come back for post op visits, how do you handle that? Do you? Do you typically have your nurse see them with instructions? Do you leave instructions for for a trainee a senior resident or a fellow? Or do you just push them until they come back? Do you utilize the expertise of our hand therapy colleagues? How do you do that?
Charles Goldfarb:If I'm going to be gone a full week, then I'll ask the fellow resident on my service to run a post op clinic post op in urgent clinic and I make the patients aware of that my nurse is there who understands everything. And again, I'm very, very lucky to have a wonderful nurse. And together with the help of the therapist. So it really is three people who all know me in different ways, working together to take care of these post op patients and get them going in the right direction. Again, the problem with pushing them off to when you come back in town is then you have to add those 6 8 10 12 patients onto your already busy schedule as you return. So it further hampers your if you want to call it recovery recovery from vacation. So I believe in trying to avoid that. Is that how you see it?
Chris Dy:Yeah, pretty much. You know, I do something very similar. And I like having the multiple layers and the multiple types of people who are familiar with your practice. I think that's that's such a helpful thing. And then obviously telling the patients that ahead of time, I think is important and making sure that you also see them when you when you come back into town.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, or call them or whatever. So yeah. All right. We're getting close to them. But I want to talk about a few I want to ask a few key questions. And I will as I think about these questions and answers myself, I think they are decisions made by myself in concert with my family. So if Tiffany plays a role in these decisions, feel free to acknowledge her so the first question is in putting email aside but on a on a routine vacation. Do you block out work time?
Chris Dy:I don't block out work time and I don't count the podcast is work because we did cut a couple of episodes while I was in Houston and honestly, I'm cutting one now in a weekend and I consider the podcast to be fun and a labor of love. So I don't block out work time. I will admit, you know, I'll I'll check on stuff, if there's something of interest to me. You know, in terms of checking like I do, I don't love coming back to a bunch of like patient things. And if it's stuff that can be triage and handled by a nurse or an MA or a trainee, who if they have the time to do it could help me with that, that'd be great. But I do I've like, when I was in Houston, I logged in epic a couple of times to take care of stuff because I was like, I can call this patient actually, at the time, like kids are asleep, like I don't mind. And I still felt like I was kind of in vacation mode. Perhaps so you know, if we're traveling abroad, you can't do that. So you know, that's obviously one thing that's useful. There are vacations where I intentionally do not bring a laptop. Because that limits my ability to log in and check on things. And it's like, you know what, this is a vacation where I want to completely unplug. And like my most recent one to Houston was not one of those. And I still came back feeling completely recharged. How about you?
Charles Goldfarb:I think that's well said, I have never been bold enough not to take my laptop. I think I'd have some kind of weird reaction. I agree with you, though. I mean, the experts would say, we shouldn't be logging into epic on a vacation. We shouldn't be, you know, do working on a paper or whatever. Not that I don't work on a paper intentionally. But if something comes to a head, or you know, or has to be done on my do it, the only thing I routinely do on vacation again, the experts would tell me know, is I tried to answer email. Now, as I've gotten better at this, I would say that once or maybe twice a day, I will sit down and deal with emails early in the morning before the family wakes up. Last thing at night, after a family may be asleep. I will just deal with emails, to me, is valuable. And it number one things continue to get done while I'm away. And to I don't come back to 1000 emails, what how do you think about emails.
Chris Dy:Patient care, stuff gets answered right away, if it's urgent, and I am very honest with nurses and aides and and therapists, you know, I say if if I'm away, text me or call me if there's if you need something like if it's truly like you need an answer, just text me or call me or contact one of my partners. If it's a less urgent thing, but a patient is waiting on something, I'll answer those emails, and then all the other stuff, I'll try to do kind of the, you know, separate time while everybody else's. You know, while I don't need to be present with my family. You know, inevitably what I tried to do is kind of wind down and then do a couple of emails and they'll try to open my book, or a magazine or something like that.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, it's it's a, it's a tricky, very slippery slope. But I think we see it the same way.
Chris Dy:But I also I also don't want to have my phone too much. Because I don't want to get cubital tunnel from you know, holding my phone all day.
Charles Goldfarb:I just don't want to have my phone too much. It's too distracting. For me it's all about books. It's all about books. So regarding email, do you leave an out of office email? And if you do, is it a standard out of office email? Or do you customize it? And maybe it depends on what you're doing and where you're going?
Chris Dy:You know, I don't you know, I because again, the people that truly need to get a hold of me for truly urgent matters, know where I'm going to be and know, and they're gonna call me or text me. So I don't leave out of office email. And if I don't think I, I think I did one time and it was a pretty standard one. It wasn't like, I don't think our world is one in which you can say something fun or quippy or you know, you know, sarcastic It's just that I don't think it flies in our world. You know what one thing that's interesting is I do know a surgeon, who if they're doing like a big case, will put an out of office email thing. And I'm like, like, they're not going to be available to answer your email today. And when I have a lot of emails in my world that go unanswered for 24 hours? I don't know, I feel I feel like it's kind of weird. Do you use the out of office message?
Charles Goldfarb:I have not I see value in it. And certainly peers, both locally and across the country will use it. I don't know, I have not chosen to do that. I continue to consider it. I'm not going to use it this week, because I'm going to be in a place where I can answer emails, but I do tend to be one of those people who, you know, if I'm between cases or between patients, I'll check my email. So I do respond quickly, almost always. And so if it is 6 8 10 12 hours, some people might wonder but you know, the honest answer is like I said, if someone really needs me, those who you know should we'll know how to get a hold of me directly.
Chris Dy:Well, you know, for your upcoming trip, what you should do is leave an out of office email with just a link to download the podcast or to leave a review.
Charles Goldfarb:Nice. And maybe your phone number.
Chris Dy:Exactly. beck and call my partner because clearly he is not doing anything right now. And then to close out to close out do you do anything that you know as you're at the tail end of your vacation, they get ready to get back into it?
Charles Goldfarb:Well, first of all, I don't like travel the day before, I'm going to go back to work and I'm, I fail on that regularly. You know, I tend to be one who stresses about, you know, I would hate to miss a clinic because I got stuck at, you know, traveling or something. But I do like to get back, and then get home, and then have a good day at home and maybe the night before again, email or check up on something. But no, I am better on the back end about not doing work until I returned to work. On the front end. I think it's harder for me. How do you think about it?
Chris Dy:Um, yeah, I don't do anything special to ramp back up. I'm usually exercising fiendishly, because I, you know, ate excessively while I was away on vacation, which is always the case. That's my own complex. But aside from that, I don't do anything differently. I basically just dread the the next clinic because it's always painful. But good to get back into the swing of things. You might as well just get thrown right back in. So.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, and as the vacation memories become just that they become memories very quickly, unfortunately. But Alright, so you and I are going to resolve to do better. Take more vacation. And when we're out try to be out of it more. Right. Is that a mutually agreed upon goal?
Chris Dy:Yeah, I think we can agree upon that mainly for your sake, because you You sound like you need a vacation more than I do.
Charles Goldfarb:I do. I'm looking forward to a few days it will be refreshing.
Chris Dy:I guess vacation requires that you actually have a home so you're already a leg up on me.
Charles Goldfarb:Because the luck I've had my basement awaits you if needed.
Chris Dy:We might we might be doing a basement hopping situation. So the Brogan's have kindly offered as well. So thank you.
Charles Goldfarb:Awesome. I love it. All right. Well, thanks for taking time and this was fun.
Chris Dy:Absolutely. Enjoy your vacation.
Charles Goldfarb:Will do. Hey, Chris, that was fun. Let's do it again real soon.
Chris Dy:Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter@Handpodcast. Hey Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?
Charles Goldfarb:Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?
Chris Dy:Mine is @ChrisDyMD spelled d y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at hand podcast@gmail.com.
Charles Goldfarb:And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
Chris Dy:and be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.
Charles Goldfarb:Special thanks to Peter Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time.