Episode 20, Season 2. Chuck and Chris talk a reality of 2021: hybrid meetings. We discuss current meetings and how the format might evolve. And we discuss tips from a recent HBR article: "How to Nail a Hybrid Presentation' by Sasrah Gershman and Rae Ringer.
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.
Survey Link:
Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz
Episode 20, Season 2. Chuck and Chris talk a reality of 2021: hybrid meetings. We discuss current meetings and how the format might evolve. And we discuss tips from a recent HBR article: "How to Nail a Hybrid Presentation' by Sasrah Gershman and Rae Ringer.
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu. And thanks to Eric Zhu, aspiring physician and podcast intern.
Survey Link:
Help Chuck and Chris understand better what you like and what we can improve. And be entered for drawing to win a mug! https://bit.ly/349aUvz
Welcome to the Upper Hand, where Chuck and Chris talk hand surgery.
Chris Dy:We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all aspects of hand surgery from technical to personal.
Charles Goldfarb:Thank you for subscribing, wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Dy:And be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, hey, Chris.
Chris Dy:Hey, Chuck, how are you?
Charles Goldfarb:I'm doing pretty well, for early on a Saturday morning,
Chris Dy:Saturday morning, cloudy day in St. Louis. But should be should be nicer later, at least the weekend will pick up.
Charles Goldfarb:I think we're having an actual spring. And we're going to forget about it pretty quickly when it becomes the Dead of Summer. But I'll take it.
Chris Dy:Everybody talks about how they don't like how it's like 50 degrees and like you realize it's going to be 85 degrees, 90 degrees and brutal in six weeks. So enjoy this.
Charles Goldfarb:Abso-darn-lutely. All right, we're gonna jump in a little quicker, we're going to cut back on the banter, not because of any negative banter feedback, let's be clear.
Chris Dy:No, it's mainly because my house is about to erupt whenever I hear my kids start coming downstairs. But I do have an interesting case to talk about. And this is going to be super cheesy, and I'll get some flack for it. But we talked before about how great it is to, to follow up with patients and the long term relationships and that kind of thing. So I had a patient who I've been seeing for Gosh, like three years or so. And, unfortunately, not that uncommon in our neck of the woods, victim of gun violence. And it was really important to remove a bullet. And it was not in the location where I typical y operate on the body, chest wal. But it was incredibly promine t immediately subcutaneous, and t was I was doing another surge y on the extremity. And th y wanted the bullet out and to k it out. And honestly, in t e post operative discussion wi h the family, that was the on y thing they wanted to know abou. And I think that was part of t was closure. And being able o say, you know what, we're ov r this, you know, I think some f the psychological components f not having that part of t e trauma still inside of them. A d not to get to David Ring-ian on the whole thing. That proba ly is the most important thing'm going to do for that patie
Charles Goldfarb:Well, it is interesting. Like we don't consider that aspect of it. Most of us think about it purely medically and say, oh, unless it's causing major problems, you don't need to take the bullet out. But it is a I do like what you said I hadn't actually thought about it that way. I think that's important.
Chris Dy:Well, nobody else would take it out also perfect, you know, Bermuda triangle of like, no service was like, I own that. I was like, You know what, fine, I'll do it.
Charles Goldfarb:Right.
Chris Dy:Because I was thinking of it completely medically, like, does it really bother you, etc, etc. But I think it was a I think it was a good move to take it out. Nobody wanted to fill out the paperwork to have you take it out.
Charles Goldfarb:True. I did a, real quick. I did a I did somewhat interesting case. This is the case that Lindley and I written about the central slip fracture. And so it's not a fracture, you see very often or, or had the opportunity to treat in an acute fashion. But I had that I had both of those opportunities. It was a it was 50 is basically the fracture was exactly the same as we see with a mallet fracture, it was 50% of the joint surface. The entire central slip was obviously still attached to the base, the dorsal base in the middle phalanx. It was displaced. And the patient was already assuming a boutonniere position. And how it was very small had a lot of conversations with the family. I feel strongly that's the right thing to do. So we pinned the joint and had to pin the fracture. And hopefully we can keep this girl quiet because she's a high level athlete for six weeks, take the pin out go from there.
Chris Dy:I think the expectations for those cases should be set appropriately. And I'm very thankful that you Lindley and Zack Meyer wrote up that paper, I think Calfee was an author too, because that came out during my board collection. And I had one of those cases on my board collection and they did spectacularly awfully, and I was able to cite the paper from our institution saying that these are hard factors. So thank you for that. You know, at least giving me some cover. There were some patient compliance issues that made it a little more challenging and I was also in my first six months or first year of practice so that that made it more challenging too because I I lost some sleep over that one for sure.
Charles Goldfarb:They are tough fractures and expectations should be tempered that is for sure. All right. You want to you want to jump in?
Chris Dy:Yeah. So it is The week of POSNA and it's hybrid hybrid meeting right?
Charles Goldfarb:Yep, POSNA is hybrid, my understanding is about 70% are attending in person and 30%. remotely. I think overall attendance is good, but not great. But, but about 70% in person. As you know, we are not allowed to travel yet by our university. And so with rare exception, we're all here in St. Louis and, and I gave a presentation remotely, to a live audience, which was interesting.
Chris Dy:So hey, Chuck, it's POSNA week, right?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, POSNA is the first meeting I'm aware of that is truly hybrid. So as we all know, there were a lot of virtual meetings last year. POSNA is truly virtual, it's in Dallas, Texas. 70% allegedly in person, 30% virtual or remote. And it's been interesting. And we can talk about why but tell it tell the audience why you suggested we talked about the hybrid meeting.
Chris Dy:Well, you know, so for those who are uninitiated POSNA is the pediatric orthopedic surgery of North America meeting, is that right?
Charles Goldfarb:The pediatric orthopedic society of North America.
Chris Dy:Okay, all right. So.
Charles Goldfarb:Mr. Uninitiated.
Chris Dy:Exactly. So So Chuck wears so many hats that we all lose track, but he is also the chief of pediatric orthopedics at for our department, which probably makes him like something really cool, like pediatric orthopedic surgeon in chief of St. Louis children's.
Charles Goldfarb:I hope you're right.
Chris Dy:So this article came out in HBR, that I thought was really, you know, kind of nicely timed. It's called How to nail a hybrid presentation. And for those who are HBR nuts, the reprint is H06C2R, and we'll put it in the show notes. But it was published on May 5. so nicely timed, the authors are Sarah Gershman, and Rae Ringel. And I thought this provided some really nice tips for a hybrid presentation. Since you know, in and out of medicine, a lot of us are doing these kinds of presentations now.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, there is no doubt that this is the future I'm I can think of. So, POSNA is hybrid, and my understanding is hand society, is hands study hybrid, or just just in person? Maybe it's just in person.
Chris Dy:Hybrid, hybrid.
Charles Goldfarb:So it's hybrid.
Chris Dy:Well hybrid as of May 15 2021.
Charles Goldfarb:True, and but interestingly, they did make some changes. If you if people are unable to attend in person, some, you know, for different for different types of meeting presentations doesn't work equally well. So if there is a panel, and four of the five people are in person and one's remote, that is harder. And so I think wisely the hand society's making some alterations.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I accepted a podium, and I'm hoping that I can go but who knows.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, the new CD is, you know, we're recording on the 15th. And yesterday to see, I think it was yesterday, the CDC came out with the, you know, the new recommendations that, you know, vaccinated people can be, together, maskless, inside and out, which is a dramatic change. But, you know, in the healthcare and, you know, setting and airplanes, those those recommendations do not apply. And so it'll be interesting to see when our university lets us travel, although, I'll be honest, I'm feeling more and more like we are an outlier, in not being allowed to travel compared to most major medical universities.
Chris Dy:Well, I've stopped trying to figure out when, and how and why recommendations get made at the university level, because I've tried to focus on things that are in my control. So things that are in my control include asking you about your hybrid presentation. And maybe you can talk about your experience. And you know, whether obviously, you weren't the one in person, but you are presenting remotely and how you engage with your audience, because there are some great tips in this article.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I think that it is interesting. So I've now recorded, I recorded two hybrid presentations. So the way the AOA annual meeting is going to work is that the most things are recorded in advance. And then speakers come together and have a symposium to answer questions live. And that originally was what POSNA was planning as I understand it, but that's not how it actually worked out. So I recorded for POSNA and had to record it in two ways. One, I had to make an mp4 of my PowerPoint, which was easy enough. And two, I did a recorded PowerPoint, a narrated PowerPoint. And then we learned that they would rather us have that as a backup, but actually present live, and which is a little bit of a hassle, but honestly not a big deal. And so they did it really well, you if you were admitted to a green room, a guy kind of talked you through the process, then you go live, you're quote unquote on stage, and you give your presentation just like you normally would. And I do have some thoughts on on that. And then you answer questions and then you're gone. So it was it was I thought it was really well done. But I wasn't in person. It might be interesting to hear from others at some point a guest about how it was to be at POSNA in person.
Chris Dy:I did see a set of screencap of the setup on Twitter. And then I saw some pictures taken from the audience of people presenting remotely via zoom. So it was it was interesting to follow the meeting on Twitter and Instagram and see how it was going. But you know, when you're presenting to a live audience, and you're remote, how do you engage?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, this, it's it. So you have that angle when the speaker is remote. And then you have the angle when the speaker is in present how does he or she engaged with the remote audience. So obviously, at this point, all I can do is speak to the former. So first of all, POSNA encouraged us to use a POSNA background, which I didn't, and I'm happy because the POSNA, the backgrounds create this weird Halo, as we've all seen around people, and I don't think that looks good. I think it's distracting. So that's number one, I just used a neutral background. There were a few speakers on my panel that did not have a neutral background. And I understood why it is highly recommended to have a very neutral background. It's just distracting. You want a clean professional appearance. And POSNAs a more casual meeting than the hand society. The hand society remains formal and everyone's in their suits and ties. And I guess part of me is either, was either raised that way or that appeals to me, but I wore my coat and tie. But I was in the minority. That's just not but I do believe it just makes it more professional and simplistic and and then I just did my thing. I mean, I really tried to give an engaging talk, which requires us to be high energy, perhaps even more so than a live presentation. So not a lot of deep insights. But that's kind of where I am.
Chris Dy:So a couple questions. If you were at POSNA in person, would you be jeans and a polo? Or are you wearing a coat and tie at POSNA in person just so you know what we're dealing with here? Because I've seen you at the hands society?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, not a suit. But a jacket and tie. I just, I think it it, I just think it reflects on what I consider the importance of the meeting. This seriousness of the information exchange, it's not to say that wearing jeans detracts from that. But I think wearing a jacket and tie for me adds to it.
Chris Dy:Dress for Success. So to say.
Charles Goldfarb:Maybe Maybe.
Chris Dy:You know, you notice how like it's a very American culture, right? Like, you know, so if, when you have like, say a big meeting that's International, like the hand society or the AAOS, at least the meetings that I've gone to all of the non American attendees are very casual, as opposed to the majority of the american attendees will still wear, you know, kind of the attire that you described. So that's maybe an aside. You know, so when one of the tips The first tip on this list is to focus on the positive and not kind of downplay you know that we're in a hybrid meeting, and this stinks, blah, blah, blah, did you acknowledge the fact that you know, you wish you could be there in person, etc, etc, did you say this is great, at least we get to connect, because that's the first tip that comes up here.
Charles Goldfarb:You know I think it is the right thing, because we all realize the challenging situation we're in. And so just being able to pull this off is, is a reason to be happy. So I did not verbally acknowledge my gratefulness for being able to present simply because I thought it was self evident. And everyone was saying that. So I just jumped into my talk. Plus, it was a podium presentation. I had a short four minutes. But But I think you're right. I mean, it is it is a this is a situation where wherever we're participating, we do need to recognize that we I think all of us have a greater appreciation for the meetings. And so we need to be grateful that they're happening and bring to it what we can.
Chris Dy:And then one of the lines that I love from this article is that if the presenter believes and expresses excitement about the hybrid experience, this will positively influence the experience of the audience. I think that's true, because you know, yes, we all have zoom fatigue. But hey, at least the technology has finally caught up where we could do something like this.
Charles Goldfarb:You are exactly right. And to me, that's the moderator. And that is the meeting leaders continuing to emphasize that which I hope other meetings will do. Not that POSNA didn't but I just am not aware how much they did that. But I totally agree.
Chris Dy:And we've talked about this, like for the podcast and for so many other things. I mean, the energy needs you need to jump through the camera.
Charles Goldfarb:Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think camera is an important word because that actually is the second point. So we I think we all have grown used to. We've grown used to the concept of zoom in teams meetings, but the camera is key and I continue to ask that everyone have cameras on it's just a very different experience for all when the cameras are on it just brings a higher level of engagement and the nonverbal cues which aren't perfect On camera are better.
Chris Dy:So they even go so far as to make this recommendation that in person participants consider bringing their laptops and turning their cameras on and muting themselves just to level the playing field even more. Do you think that makes a difference?
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, I think it could. But I think the chances of that happening in our kind of meetings is zero. Because the people who are at the meetings are thrilled to be at the meetings and they want to leave zoom far behind.
Chris Dy:And I'm pretty sure they have their laptops open for other reasons, like we talked about before, like somebody like me, like making their final changes on their talk or making their talk at the meeting.
Charles Goldfarb:Or they hear Goldfarb is about to talk to elbow OCDs. And they you know, get on espn.com
Chris Dy:World experts in elbow OCDs in the adolescent population, for sure.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, I'll take it.
Chris Dy:It combines your two worlds it's pedes and it's sports. I mean, what better thing what better thing.
Charles Goldfarb:It is it is and it does bring a really great opportunity for collaboration with my sport, adult sports partners, which has been really part of the fun.
Chris Dy:Like like a workman hammering nails. He's now he's now filling potholes that Chuck Goldfarb.
Charles Goldfarb:I'm learning about potholes in the elbow. That is exactly right.
Chris Dy:So the next the next tip is to make a direct eye contact. It says here begin your presentation by first looking deliberately and directly at the camera. This sends the whole group a message that the people on zoom are critical. Did you try to do this as you were giving your presentation? I know it's hard to keep your focus directly on the on the camera?
Charles Goldfarb:It is. So I did to begin for sure. You know, I don't know what you think or what the audience thinks. But when I'm on a zoom meeting, it's actually hard to look at the camera like I'm doing right now and not look at you or me. You know, it's a very strange experience. So especially when you're giving a PowerPoint, you have to focus on the PowerPoint. And so yes, I tried to start my presentation with a direct view in the camera. But then I think we're looking at our PowerPoint and just trying to get through in a timely fashion.
Chris Dy:The next one talks about moving around to include everybody. And I guess this applies more for the person that's live, you clearly don't want to get out of the scope of your camera in the shot. And you know, I guess you have to understand the AV part of it. But if we are able to go to the hands society, are you going to be you know, working the room TED Talk style? Is that your normal style?
Charles Goldfarb:So one of. No, no, it's not my normal style. But one of the speakers maybe it was one of the presidential invitees. It was a guy named Jason Dorsey, who speaks to generational issues, Millennials versus Gen X. And, and I didn't think he did that at all. And I did not feel engaged. He clearly is an experienced high energy speaker, which I like. And he's trying to engage the audience. But he was engaging the physical audience. And so it's this point is a fair one. Because as I watched remotely, I was totally detached. And it made it very difficult to engage with the speaker with the message with the whole thing. I think this is an excellent point and one that perhaps we should share with others as they study approaches.
Chris Dy:Maybe we'll see the hand society send out this article to the to the podium presenters. Because I also think generationally, there are more expectations for things like Ted style talks.
Charles Goldfarb:There are, and we saw that I think the first time we saw that sort of just stylistically was as was it Scott, oh no, Jim Chang's, or was a Scott's- anyways, one of the one it was either Jim or Scott's presidential presidential guests were a number of people doing shorter talks in this engagement way. And these speakers, you know, I think you and I speak comfortably and confidently, in public in a very scientific manner. You know, we're not and we can be dynamic in a scientific way, but that's not truly dynamic. And so, I'm trying to learn from these speakers and I think it's as this article implies, it's more important than ever, that we learn from those who do this for a living.
Chris Dy:All right, you heard it here. Chuck's gonna give a TED talk in a couple of years, so we're gonna see how he does.
Charles Goldfarb:First I have to have a TED talk worthy topic.
Chris Dy:Inspirational and aspirational, how to fill potholes.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, you know, who has given a TEDx type talk was Susan Mackinnon. And I don't know that I ever saw that talk, but I am a little jealous. I think the format's awesome. And if you can, we do enough interesting things that uh, that an intellectually curious audience, I'm gonna blame it on the potential audience and intellectually curious potential audience should find interest in what you do and maybe what I do.
Chris Dy:Maybe the next national meeting you're in charge of, you can volunteer some people to give mini TED talks as part of a forum or a symposium just to get people out of their comfort zone.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, maybe I'll, unfortunately I have one of those coming up soon, in a few years. I don't know. We'll see. I'll write that one down. All right, what's next on the list.
Chris Dy:Emotionally engaged remote participants. So it's critical that the remote participants feel heard and seen. So greet virtual participants personally at the beginning of the session, and continue to address and engage them. Yeah, I tried to do this actually, when I give a zoom talk when everybody's on zoom. So I gave one of our resident interactives, a month or so ago, and I didn't realize I was doing it. But our partner Marty Boyer loved the fact that I was calling out the residents on various lighthearted things on top of actually asking them about the cases that we were presenting about. But I think that, you know, that's probably a key for presentations, even if you're doing them in person, but maybe it becomes more drawn out and more important when you're doing a hybrid or online only presentation.
Charles Goldfarb:That is correct. And I totally agree. And again, I think this, this is a message that is really important for the moderators, more challenging for each individual speaker, but it needs to be a theme that we would all like to be in person, it's not present. Now, who knows, you know, what our meetings are going to look like in two years or five years? I think all of us in one, you know, one capacity want to go back to what it was, but but maybe, maybe it doesn't. So, yeah, engaging everyone is critically important. And that's what this article is about. And I think trying to do so verbally
Chris Dy:As an aside, do you think that there will continue is part of it. to be a hybrid or a virtual only option for many meetings, because you know, just from time away from family and practice perspective, I can see the advantage if you're not giving a talk or something, and you're attending as somebody who just wants to learn, maybe you miss out on the interpersonal connections, but you shave a business day off on both ends? What do you think about that? Will there be like different amounts of CME given for that, or?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I don't think so. And here's why. I think it's both hard to not be physically present at a meeting and truly attend. And I can speak for myself, you know, I just put my, my attendance at POSNA was lame, because I was still here working. And yes, I could have blocked out a day or two, but I saw some of my partners do that. And they also didn't attend as much as they would have in person. And second of all, the logistics, and the challenges on our many small organizations is really tough, not to mention the cost. So I think everyone is eager to get away from this. Which which doesn't, you know, make your point. Not important. Your point is important, and it could work, but I just don't see it happening.
Chris Dy:There's also the financial aspects of conducting a meeting. I mean, you need participants, you know, you need eyeballs, and footsteps in the exhibitor Hall, you know, that that helps a lot. The organizations that are quite small,
Charles Goldfarb:Well, and these organizations depend on the annual meeting as a huge chunk of their operating money. And so without them, or with they have to give a discount for virtual participation, it doesn't work.
Chris Dy:So the next pearl is to foster hybrid collaboration, which in an ideal world, you're able to do something like this at a meeting. But I don't know if the tech at our smaller meetings will be able to be there yet. But it talks about when dividing a larger presentation into smaller groups. The temptation is to put the in person and the remote people in separate groups. This reinforces the notion that the two are separate rather than one working one group working together. So try mixing it up, have virtual and in person participants work together. Now, I would love it. If you able to give a talk at a meeting and do breakout rooms with virtual and in person, people that just seems like a logistical and administrative nightmare.
Charles Goldfarb:I think it is we're not we're not ready. And it's also not truly the style of most of our meetings where we're, you know, listening to symposiums. And we're giving podium presentations. So thankfully, I don't think this hits us as much as it may hit other industries. It's tough, so I'm not sure we're gonna see a whole lot of that.
Chris Dy:So bring us to a close with the last one.
Charles Goldfarb:My favorite. Keep it short. I mean, there is no doubt that, you know, I've learned that lesson more than once. Brevity is, is always welcome.
Chris Dy:I'm sure there are some inspirational quote, is it brevity is the soul of wit.
Charles Goldfarb:No, but-
Chris Dy:You're you're a poem. You're a poet, right?
Charles Goldfarb:No, there is a we need to get this in there. Whoa, I was just thinking the same thing. speech. I'm doing a Google search real quick speech brevity. What is it? Oh, come on. One of them is Be sincere. Be brief. Be seated. Oh, come on. I don't know. Let me see. Are you looking to?
Chris Dy:I was right.
Charles Goldfarb:What is it?
Chris Dy:It's from Hamlet.
Charles Goldfarb:What is it?
Chris Dy:Brevity is the soul of wit.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, there it is. Yeah. Let's do that one. And then let's do the the other one. Who said this one? I don't know who said it, but I'll I'll quote that one. So let's go back. I'll start. Right. Hey, Chris, are there any? You know, when you think about brevity and speeches? It just is there a quote that you think of when you think of this
Chris Dy:Stop stop it Chuck, because I know you're gonna go back and edit this. So I'm gonna tell you guys, we started this. And right off the cuff when we were discussing this last pearl. I said, Chuck, isn't there some kind of poetic quotes about brevity? And I said, you know, brevity is the soul of wit. Aren't you a poet, Chuck? And we paused. And we both said, that sounds right. But let's look it up. And I was right.
Charles Goldfarb:You were right.
Chris Dy:The middle, the middle sibling in me.
Charles Goldfarb:Yes.
Chris Dy:Remeber that I was right. And I needed to tell you that I was right.
Charles Goldfarb:Yes. And and that is Shakespeare and well done. Bravo. My.
Chris Dy:That's all that's all I got. That's all I got.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, and I don't know who said this one. But my quote is, be sincere, be brief, be seated. And I think that's about a toast rather than a real speech. But I think both pearls pertain to this conversation.
Chris Dy:Well, there's some kind of New Yorker style cartoon that shows a podium moderator at a meeting, throwing it to the audience saying, and now we will take mini soliloquies from the audience, you have the line of like five people that are at the podium, that don't have a question, but just want to say something.
Charles Goldfarb:It's true. And you know, I thought about that, getting back to the hybrid discussion. I thought about that in this format. So what happens if you get someone who asked a question? And we all know those people who like to ask the questions from the audience to give their own opinions? Most of the questions for this meeting seem to be electronically submitted, which does help decrease that chance. But I think that is a risk with hybrids.
Chris Dy:I honestly, I kind of missed the I missed that part of the meetings, because I always like to see who's asking stuff there. And I remember wanting when as a, as a resident, and as a kind of junior faculty still am, being in the audience saying, gosh, I really want to ask a question, but I don't know if I'm gonna come across as that person. I don't want to be that person.
Charles Goldfarb:That's right. I often think when I'm on stage, will I have the courage to to ask the tech folks support? Cut mic three we gotta stop this guy?
Chris Dy:Well, you just have to start playing music, get your phone out, start playing the Oscars music saying sorry, sorry, sir. It's It's time. Well, speaking of being brief, and having brevity, we're done. This is it. We'll join everybody next week for another podcast.
Charles Goldfarb:Hey, Chris, that was fun. Let's do it again real soon.
Chris Dy:Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter@handpodcast. Hey, Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?
Charles Goldfarb:Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?
Chris Dy:Mine is @ChrisDyMD spelled d y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at hand podcast@gmail.com.
Charles Goldfarb:And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
Chris Dy:and be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.
Charles Goldfarb:Special thanks to Peter Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time.