Season 4, Episode 5. Chuck and Chris are back, on our new every other week schedule. In this episode, we discuss take-aways from two recent ASSH Webinars, one on wrist arthroscopy and one on the ulnar nerve. Then, we take a deep dive on an HBR article, "How to Work with a Workaholic Colleague".
HBR, Feb 2023, written by Melody Wilding.
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Please complete NEW Survey: bit.ly/3X0Gq89
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
Complete podcast catalog at theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.
Season 4, Episode 5. Chuck and Chris are back, on our new every other week schedule. In this episode, we discuss take-aways from two recent ASSH Webinars, one on wrist arthroscopy and one on the ulnar nerve. Then, we take a deep dive on an HBR article, "How to Work with a Workaholic Colleague".
HBR, Feb 2023, written by Melody Wilding.
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://bit.ly/3iHGFpD
See www.practicelink.com/theupperhand for more information from our partner on job search and career opportunities.
Please complete NEW Survey: bit.ly/3X0Gq89
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
Complete podcast catalog at theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.
Welcome to the upper hand podcast where Chuck and Chris talk Hand Surgery.
Chris Dy:We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all things hand surgery related from technical to personal.
Charles Goldfarb:Please subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Dy:And thank you in advance for leaving a review and leaving a rating wherever you get your podcasts.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, hey, Chris.
Chris Dy:Hey, Chuck, how are you?
Charles Goldfarb:Hi, I'm doing really well. It's Friday afternoon.
Chris Dy:Yeah, and you should have more energy. I mean, it's been two weeks since our last episode drops. So you've had a lot of time to recharge.
Charles Goldfarb:I've missed you. I've missed you. This is gonna be hard on me.
Chris Dy:I'm sure you'll get by. I think you'll be okay. But you know, for all of the loyal listeners out there checking I have missed each other. You know, even though we're in the same building on the same floor, we're still choosing to do this over zoom.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, is that you're at your desk, and I'm in my desk.
Chris Dy:That's right. That's right. So what's new?
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, pretty much same old, same old. I had a couple of good cases I can share with you and did a did a really interesting hand society webinar recently talking about that. What about yourself?
Chris Dy:Yeah, so we had an interesting hand society fellowship debate webinar, too. So why don't we talk about your webinar, I could talk about it, what I talked about, you know, the topics that came up in ours, and then we could do a quick, you know, the HBR article we talked about,
Charles Goldfarb:that would be awesome. So our webinar was a few weeks ago, it was put on by the hand society. And it was just about interest arthroscopy. So we had a great, a great panel, we had soSanj Kakar, who was talking about arthroscopic scapholunate reconstruction, which I'm intrigued by, I haven't done a lot of but I think I will, at least, you know, do some more work in that area. We had Jeff Yao, talking about tips and pearls, which were really interesting. Lauren Shapiro, from UCSF, for those of you who don't know, Lauren, who trained with Jeff was really fantastic reviewing some of the literature because many sports topics get, you know, may not be as scientifically based as, as exciting things like nerve.
Chris Dy:I thought you're gonna say that a lot of sports stuff ends up in different art journals, not just JHS. I'm not gonna argue. So what you're saying? Yeah.
Charles Goldfarb:And so we had a great conversation, and I talked a little about TFCC. So it was really fun, and pretty good attendance, you know, those things are always hard to judge, I think we had about 100 people on, but the post webinar viewing usually is much higher. So it was it was very successful.
Chris Dy:That's great. That's a pretty solid number for weeknights. And, you know, for a, for a webinar, especially in the, you know, the height of the pandemic things were, you know, much better attended, but those are pretty solid numbers.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I think post pandemic those are very solid numbers. What about what about the fellow debate series on cubital tunnel
Chris Dy:before you before we get to that? I mean, what are are there a couple of things that you took away that maybe you could share? You're gonna make everybody actually go log in and listen to? I will listen to get your pad your stats.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, what my stats up? Are you kidding? My takeaways are that there really is expertise in wrist arthroscopy, and I think with experience comes valuable teachings. And I really am intrigued about arthroscopic scapholunate repair and the concept is really, almost an arthroscopic capsulardesis can have a role. When people talk about arthroscopic reconstruction soon as they are thinking about really difficult things that had been proposed out of Hong Kong, by PC Ho and others where you're taking a tendon graft and doing a weave. That, to me sounds challenging. But these techniques, the newer techniques really are pretty slick. And I think they probably have a nice role to play. I've harped on this before, but I'll say it again, the incidence of phobias TFCC tears, with owner side risk pain is higher than I ever expected. And so being aware of that pathology, looking for that pathology and treating it appropriately and when found, it's really important. And those are the biggest two but I would say that we are slowly making progress and understanding of risk pathology to how to treat it in a minimally invasive and effective way.
Chris Dy:Very nice. Is there any any newer techniques in terms of stabilizing those foveal tears aside from what you've been doing the last couple of years with the older tunnel type technique?
Charles Goldfarb:There aren't that I'm aware of, but there probably do need to be the the owner tunnel is good. I've honestly had a few failures, although I've had many excesses. So there and I do sometimes do a variation where I really like, this is going to date me. But I really liked the meniscus meander two set which is made by Smith and Nephew, which was the original one,
Chris Dy:they still make it Are they still selling down the supply that they made back in 1982
Charles Goldfarb:the latter, but it's what I only used to use for outside in repairs. But I do use that to supplement sometimes that phobia repairs because you can slip that needle either through your tunnel or right around the the ulnar styloid. And it's inexpensive and it works really well. But I think there probably are still advances to be made with effectiveness and durability of repair.
Chris Dy:Now, not to hold you to this at a scientific peer reviewed level. But anecdotally, what are the reasons why you think some of the other tunnel repairs fail?
Charles Goldfarb:I suppose it is because well, we can reattach through this tunnel with a nice solid suture, the TFCC back down to the owner, we're asking a lot. And so if that doesn't have the chance to really heal, back to bone, the TFC back to bone. And again, I think we're asking a lot it, it can fail. And I think it's that simple. So that's why someone has applet to sutures hoping to minimize that. But there may be better techniques out there. The trick, of course, is you don't want to just plaster the TFC down to the head of the ulna because then you'll lose rotation. So it is a little bit of a trick of secure fixation without limitation of motion.
Chris Dy:Right. And do you think it's how much of that is tunneled placement versus you know, postdoc protocols? Or just maybe you don't ever get it down enough?
Charles Goldfarb:All fair? I don't think we have. That's why one of the reasons I'm excited about the work that you are aware of that. One of our fellows, Dr. Wright and I are getting ready to embark on looking at DRUJ stability and trying to quantify it in a way that the knee surgeons quantify translation of the tibia on the femur, I think it has real potential to really providing some data regarding stability because we right now it's all sense of feel and we are terrible at
Chris Dy:I remember when this will date me. But when I was a medical student working on projects in medical school, one of the things that was going on in that lab was trying to use you know, tech scan sensors on the skin and assessing and quantifying DRUJ stability and on the carpal stability and trying to get a handle on that. So I'm glad that the field has advanced substantially in the you know, three or four years since I graduated med school.
Charles Goldfarb:You're not as young as you like to make yourself out to be anymore. Dr. Dy.
Chris Dy:One of the one of our fellows asked me today what year I graduated high school, which is like oh, oh, I didn't ask her when she graduated high school. And I was like I graduated from med school that year.
Charles Goldfarb:So wait, so your attempts to quantify DRUJtranslation were unsuccessful all those years ago.
Chris Dy:They were unpublished. There is quantification. But there is a lot of challenges in getting you know, it wasn't a project I was involved in but I was heard about it during the lab meeting. So I was like, Man, that project still around. Oh, sure. There's there's a there's a wealth of data out there that might beat you and David Wright to the scoop. Scoop you guys beat to the punch.
Charles Goldfarb:We'll keep it on the down low we won't talk about on a podcast or anything.
Chris Dy:Exactly, he won't tell 1000s and 1000s of your loyal listeners and fans Chuck Goldfarb
Charles Goldfarb:Thats right. Well tell me about your webinar.
Chris Dy:Well, before I do, we have to thank our sponsors because we oftentimes forget and sometimes have to go back and re insert some new copy. But the upper hand is sponsored by practice link.com The most widely used physician job search and career advancement resource.
Charles Goldfarb:Becoming a physician is hard. Finding the right job doesn't have to be joined practice link for free today at www.practicelink.com / the upper hand. And I think you and I were planning to potentially meet with the owner and discuss some different strategies that might be helpful from building their network of physicians that are interested because I really do you believe in in what they are doing and within the goals of the organization.
Chris Dy:Absolutely. And just for those you that are listening, I think this episode is going to drop about three weeks before the AAOS meeting in Las Vegas. I believe practice Lake will have a presence there on the floor. Because they did ask if you and I wanted to record live Chuck told them I don't think we're both available at the same time because I don't think we are but they did say something about having Chuck Goldfarb where you're practicing cat and signing some kind of swag. So if if those of you that are listening are going to be at the AAOS and want to start a petition to get chuck to have some autograph time. Please, please reach out hand podcast@gmail.com I'll sign the petition. Check some stuff decide,
Charles Goldfarb:oh Lord, I am going to be in Vegas. But honestly I'm not really planning to attend the meeting I have some other things going on. But
Chris Dy:oh man has other things going on
Charles Goldfarb:Wednesdays and what happens in Vegas, you know the old saying Dr. Dy Oh, yes.
Chris Dy:Well, there is the American Orthopedic Association has that executive committee meeting that I'm sure you will be attending as well. So, yes, very excited about that trip. I think it will be a fun a fun meeting. But anyway, yeah, so we had the, we had the fellowship debate series latest edition was on cubital tunnel syndrome. That was just last night. Our fellowship was well represented by our own David Wright, who apparently is all over the place because he's working with you. But he gave a great talk last night, and he was mentored by our partner David Brogan. There was a representative from the Hospital for Special Surgery. Aaron Kim was mentored by Dan Osei or former partner and Leigh Osterman's group from Philly Hand Center was represented by Tristan Weir and Jeremy Reduka was representing Duke and mentored by Sahil Madani. So it was good talk, each of them presented their data science topics, I presented a revision cubital tunnel case, and there is a discussion about why it should be an intramuscular transposition, there is one about why you should do the added professional flap, which I'm sure you are all about. They do it a little differently at Duke than they do, then how rosenwasser described it. And then David talked about why we shouldn't rap nerves, which I think was super interesting. I know that we do have some of our industry partners that listen to this. It was a balanced discussion, I promise about the pros and cons of rapping, but ended up that many of the faculty on surgeons on the call do not use raps widely. And then there was a discussion about supercharging and the argument to supercharge and when it's appropriate. So there's some good topics that came up. I mean, one of the you know, at the end, we were having a discussion, and one of them was about how to minimize postoperative scarring or adhesions around the nerve, especially in a revision setting. So Chuck, do you have any pearls on that I can share some of the stuff that was shared by the faculty.
Charles Goldfarb:You know, it's a really interesting question, which I know your life is one dimensional is nerve nerve nerve. But I will say that, you know, we talked about it and congenital hand surgery, and not to put a plug in but I am going to put a plug in, we have this major meeting, international meeting, which happens once every three years. It is in May in Minneapolis. So we're we're hosting the entire world. And at this meeting, there's going to be some really interesting talks, and one of our keynotes, is by a physician named Michelle Griffin. And actually, she's a PhD on the role of mechanics in skin wound repair and fibrosis. And there is progress with controlling scar formation. And it is much needed, because the only thing that I know to do is moved patients. I don't know what else to do. But I hope you're going to enlighten me right now.
Chris Dy:Well, that's actually where well first off, that's a great meeting. Here's Chuck, again, plugging his own programming, by the way. That will be a great meeting that was that was delayed once because of the pandemic, right?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, so the it happened. I've been in 2012 2015 2018. We got delayed from 2021 to 2023. And so there's pent up demand for congenital content Dr D.
Chris Dy:Triannual Congress of sorts, as well as what we're calling this
Charles Goldfarb:Absolutely Thank you for making it. So.
Chris Dy:I'm sure it's gonna be great. One of our fellows, Kelsey Overman is going to be attending, she's totally jazzed about it. So I brought up the motion thing. And I was very surprised that that, you know, some of the surgeons in the group, you know, move their patients very early. So there was one surgeon who said soft dressing move the day of surgery. The other one said that they also moved the day of surgery, although they use the splint and got them out of the splint. I'm at the three day mark, which I think, you know, I think we've talked about on the podcast before. And then there are others who are a little bit slower to move patients. So I think that, you know, there's a lot of variability there. But that's probably one of the big things that's going to help or there was discussion about whether using a rap of various sorts, you know, there was definitely I don't think we're lumping all the RAPs into one. I think that you know, certainly autologous is different than a a synthetic wrap like a PGA or a bovine or porcine product. And then the amniotic wraps may have an interesting role, too. I know one of our listeners and friends Rob gray reports some very enthusiastic anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence anecdotes, regarding the amniotic amniotic wrap, so I think that is an option. I certainly have not seen enough data to convince me to use that but the one thing that really came up and people really resonated was the importance of hemostasis.
Charles Goldfarb:That that is a really good point. And it's really fair. I know that at least one of our partners places a drain with ulnar nerve transposition. I did.
Chris Dy:That's me. That's me. Oh.
Charles Goldfarb:I'm so sorry for your
Chris Dy:So there's some really great episodes. Oh, cubital tunnel. Chuck, I don't know if you know that there's a podcast about hand surgery. Most downloaded episodes are about Cubital Tunnel.
Charles Goldfarb:I just assumed you'd moved on from there. Now, all right. So the i i totally agree hematoms has are bad. And I'm very meticulous on the way in, but I do not let down the tourniquet or place a drain. And I don't to my knowledge in the last few years, and I can't remember much past that. I haven't had a major hematoma. But I think it's a very fair statement and maybe worth considering a change in practice for me.
Chris Dy:Yeah, you'll consider and then you'll see no good. Exactly. Yeah, no, I think it's an personally I think it's an important thing. You know, I like to, to get a sense of how things are looking once the transposition is done. I don't do it for a subcutaneous transposition, though. You know, I think that it's more likely to have kind of that continuous oozing after you've worked through the flexor pronator. Mass. If you do some muscular transposition, even if you do an intra muscular effect, you're working through some of the muscle. And then you tend to get those those really pesky vessels by the septum too, if you're not careful if you're doing any transposition, but yeah, I think hemostasis as one of my former mentors and a current tumor surgeon, I believe she's at Hopkins. Now Carol Morris says"hemostasis starts with the approach". And that's a surgical principle. Principle I live by since a trading with Dr. Morris.
Charles Goldfarb:I love that. And I haven't actually heard it stated that way. But it is certainly a truism
Chris Dy:that I feel like I feel like orthopedic oncologist, maybe it's too or surgeons in general just have such great one liners and aphorisms, and that was one of them.
Charles Goldfarb:It's good. It's definitely good. Well, it's a great webinar. Yeah, it
Chris Dy:was really, it was really fun. You know, I think it honestly the conversation could have carried on a lot longer, we started to get into the discussion about whether ultrasound is helpful for revision cases and what the role of that is, and then the role of the the old role of the insight to decompression. There's a lot of talk about the real revision rate after that, and it's very different. You know, Lee claims to have a 2% Revision rate based on the paper that he wrote, We know Dan's paper from here demonstrated a 20%. And if you look at the end, we know the paper you originally wrote with Dr. Manske was around 7%. So we know that the populations are very different in each of those papers. Yeah, so I think it's, you know, it's not apples to apples to apples, but the revision rates, probably somewhere in between. Let's talk about this HBR article that you emailed me probably at some ungodly hour in the morning, but it's called how to work with a workaholic colleague, the author is Melody Wilding. And I don't have the HBR reprint number in front of me, but for some reason included here, but it was published on February 1 of this year.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, the title caught me because some, you know, might confuse me for one of those workaholics Dr Dy. And I thought maybe I could learn something, but also thought there will be practical advice. And there is I think it's a very, it's not a complex topic, but in the sense of how do you deal with a workaholic colleague, but I think it's, it's, it's useful, because in medicine, whether it be private practice or academic practice, there will be varying efforts. And certainly, you know, the old school classic surgeon, that overworks is, exist everywhere.
Chris Dy:Yeah, absolutely, for sure. And I think probably to set the stage I will read the first paragraph of the article, because I think it's a good way to set it up. So it says, Your colleague is the first one and the last one to leave, they volunteer to take on every additional task that comes your team's way and they respond to emails within minutes. They're working all the time, whether from the office or from home. In short, you're dealing with a workaholic. While it's tough reporting to a workaholic boss, having a hard driving peer who seems married to the job can be equally frustrating. So let's say it's not your boss, or your executive vice chair, but it's your partner and somebody at work who just seems to always be working. How does that strike you? I mean, like you said, you know, I think many of us in surgery, medicine, therapy, health care, you know, you're clearly driven to a certain point to get to this stage. And those habits don't die hard, or don't die easily, or hard to die. So how do you divorce like the, you know, what got you here? And what's going to get you to the next place?
Charles Goldfarb:You know, I think the one advantage that we have in our complex worlds, is we really don't have line of sight into each other's lives. And I think that's a good like, I have no idea when you came into work this morning, I have no idea when you're going home and what you're going to accomplish during this day. I, you know, at the end of the year, I certainly see metrics but but I, you know, that's not something I really live by, as opposed to an office setting where people are coming and going. So I think our medical world is different than, than some of the other worlds. But, you know, you kind of see, you know, emails, and we can talk about the appropriateness of seeing, sending after our emails and weekend emails. I've thought a lot about that, and we've talked about it, but you know, I think it's, the bottom line is, you have to just try to do your own thing. But that can be easier said than done?
Chris Dy:Well, I think that's one of the take homes of the article is really understanding that they're doing their thing, and you're doing your thing, and you need to not be lulled into, well, I've got to be like they're being because you know, workaholic, may be a workaholic for a number of different reasons. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they're trying to one up you or put you down, you just need to lean into the fact that that's not your choice. And that's not how you want to approach work, and just say aye, these are my boundaries, this is what I'm going to do, I'm not going to do certain things off hours, and you know, I'm not going to have the same behaviors, which honestly can be very hard, because I think that, you know, I, when I read this article, it reminded me of residency, you know, and having to, you know, keep up with a very, you know, very talented, and driven and smart and competitive group of peers who I love. And we had a great bond, but it was a tough group to keep up with.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, there's some value, especially if it's a, you know, during residency, for example, you know, driving you to be your best, maybe pushing too hard. But once it becomes the rest of your life, that's difficult, I'm gonna read a little bit more. There's a difference between working hard and being emotionally dependent on your job. Motivation separates a co worker who's engaged from one who's obsessed, workaholics field and internal compulsion to give the business they're all and can't turn off. Instead, they think about professional matters off hours at the expense of their personal life, and relationships. That's the danger. Right?
Chris Dy:Right. Absolutely. I mean, I think that as something I've been thinking about a lot recently is kind of the like, existential question of like, what's what's worth it in your life? Like, what's, you know, when do you what role should work be in your fulfillment? And obviously, that's not, you know, a, something that, you know, is binary, it's certainly something that has, you know, a spectrum in terms of, you know, you'll need to be able to turn it on and off at certain amounts, as you progress in your career and as your family life changes. But it it is, you know, having being always on and having, you know, work be a heavy part of your emotional fulfillment, you know, it's certainly a recipe for you know, what we talk about a lot, which is burnout,
Charles Goldfarb:right? And I'm in an interesting stage not to get too personal when, you know, it's the everyone talks about the classic midlife crisis, which really may have always meant burnout. And when your kids go off to college, you have an empty nest, and it's time to reassess things. That, you know, that's what you look at, you look at kind of what is your work life balance and, and friends and all those kinds of things. And, and, you know, we can we can talk at nauseam about those things, but trying to find the right balance and your balance and my balance and the next person's balance is going to look different. And that's okay. And again, that's one of the central take home messages.
Chris Dy:Right. I think it's interesting that you reframe the midlife crisis as burnout. Because I think, you know, it's probably is a better way of looking at it. You know, generationally, things have certainly changed, but I don't think that's one. I think that's also important to recognize that the, you know, everybody's balance or rhythm is different in terms of work and personal life, but also your own rhythm will change. And it's about recognizing that you are evolving, you're changing over time, and that's something that you need to pay attention to. And that's, you know, I think that is an honest assessment and reappraisal, you know, tempting to do at the beginning of the year because of the new year stuff, but you know, or an academic year, but I think that's an important thing to do and something that I'm trying to rededicate myself towards.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, it is it is not easy and and you know, it is I certainly will say I feel like it is okay. Need to work really hard, it is okay to put in a lot of hours. But if you have a family, the trick is being 100% on when you're with your family. And as we again have also discussed, when do you find time for yourself outside of work and outside of family. And you know, that may be getting up early to exercise which I swore I'd never do. And I was on the peloton way too early this morning. And that's okay, though it gives me energy instead of taking energy away. And so you, you we all of us can make it work. It's just depending on finding a way to be on in all your activities.
Chris Dy:Right. And that's, that's one of the things that's easier said than done in terms of, you know, when you're with family being completely with family being completely present, because he has one of the things about this workaholic article is that the workaholic lets those work related things seep into all parts of their life and is pervasive. And honestly, it is really hard to turn it off. When you're when you're, when you're not at work. And you're supposed to be with family and doing your self care time, whatever it is. But I think it is trying to find some way to do that. But it's super hard to do. I certainly don't have any. I can't say I'm an expert at it.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I guess I'd be interested in your strategy. So you know, we work hard here, not passing judgment and other institutions. But you know, put in a long day, I'm trying to be better about you know, I try to finish my email before I go home. And then I may have a few more to clean up. I'm trying to do my research activities during the daytime at work, or at selective hours on the weekend, typically, before the family wakes up, trying to avoid going home and just opening the computer, which I have been guilty of, but but try to control.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I've really tried to avoid that. And obviously there are going to be exceptions to that, like when you're doing a webinar or something you don't have to. But yeah, I've tried to be tried to be good about that. But there are just times where, especially with like, you know, the pandemic and you know, during that work from home time and more flexibility and stuff for those of us that do academic work, and you know, those lines just get very blurred, it was much easier before to draw a very clear line. But there are times where I would just rather be home and around. But then also I know that being home and around, there's the expectation that I am home, and I am there with them not necessarily working. It's kind of hard to explain that, to at least at this stage, a seven year old and a four year old.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, for sure. Should we It won't take long, but you want to go through some of the specific recommended actions.
Chris Dy:Yeah, they talked about D personalizing the actions of your workaholic colleague, they use some very fancy social psychology term here called the fundamental attribution error. And I'll skip their definition of it. But it says here, in other words, your colleague is probably not overworking to intimidate or one up you. And debias your thinking by considering other reasons for their behavior. Perhaps your colleague is going through something personally or is throwing themselves into work as an escape, or maybe they are reacting to a past workplace trauma.
Charles Goldfarb:There's a lot there. But the bottom artists, let them do their thing, and you do yours.
Chris Dy:And there's probably a reason why. Right. And I think that we and and you and I have talked about this, I think personally not necessarily in the context of the podcast, we don't give other people the benefit of the doubt enough. Like maybe they just have some stuff they're going through, and they just need to throw themselves into work to ignore everything else that's going on. And this is their way of coping, and they're not trying to put you down by working more hours or doing whatever else. This is just what they need right now. And we just assume that other people, we assume that we understand their intentions, and we probably have no idea,
Charles Goldfarb:And I think I have learned that lesson and then had to relearn it and relearn it and relearn it and is give people the benefit of the doubt and assume best intentions and make them prove you're really wrong before you give up on that.
Chris Dy:Right? Wait, I'm sure that's probably a leadership lesson that you have to live every day.
Charles Goldfarb:Well, we all should remember to avoid glorifying the behavior. That's a little tricky, because you want to be a good partner, you want to be a good co worker. But the example is if you know your colleague stayed up all night, creating a presentation, for example, complimenting their sacrifice can be counterproductive. Interesting, I mean, if it's a good presentation is a good presentation. But I understand the point.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I understand the point. I think that that's probably outside of the context of what what we do deal with in kind of a health care, you know, setting. But you know, I think that there are there are times where we can monitor our own behavior. And even if we're criticizing somebody for something, we shouldn't be doing the same thing. So it talks to the next paragraph about, you know, if you're criticizing somebody about being a workaholic, maybe you shouldn't be sending emails on Saturday night at 10pm, for example, and even if you're clearing out your in that inbox, because you think that's a good thing for you, maybe time your messages to go out on Monday morning, which I've often thought about, but I've never quite figured out exactly how to do.
Charles Goldfarb:So I'll be honest, I've thought a lot about it. Because especially when I'm eating, I mean, I don't think I'll maybe I should, I think should think about what every email but I think more about it with staff and, and I don't want people to feel like they have to respond. It's not the sending of the email. And I'm certainly not trying to send any messaging about my work hours, but I think is the probably, and I don't expect a return email. And I've actually seen by lines and emails saying the timing of this email does not reflect an expectation to respond. But the point is, should we just time our emails actually, Outlook makes it super simple. I do it occasionally. And maybe he just shouldn't send emails after 6pm? Or, or on the weekends, maybe just time?
Chris Dy:Yeah, no, I think that, you know, we have a sense, we want to clear our head clear our inbox when you know, a lot of us use our inbox as our to do list. And so what I do, but it's also like, you know, somebody's going to read something, and it's going to have even a split second effect on them. And sometimes there is that little dopamine hit of just like replying and being done with it. But it's like that repetitive dopamine hit just keeps adding up and adding up and then all of a sudden, you're no longer watching your kids soccer game. It's, it's, it's human nature.
Charles Goldfarb:It's human nature. The next one is resist appear
Chris Dy:fairly timing your emails is very simple. So I should probably try a little harder.
Charles Goldfarb:It is simple, you should play with it. The next one is resist peer pressure. You know, and I think that's, that's the real danger here. You know, trying to keep up trying to avoid questioning your work effort. I think that a lot of that depends on if you have a boss, what how you're, you know how your boss may see your work effort being validated and how you're handling things would help with that. But that's the trickier for me.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I think it is really knowing thyself, and setting your own, you know, talk next about setting boundaries, but it's knowing what you want to do what you're willing to do, and just saying, look, like, that's what you do. This is what I do. And that's it. That can be hard at times, if you especially if you're early on in your career. You know, it's hard to understand how you can maintain your confidence, but also still feel like you're gonna be valued in the same way.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, love it. Love it. Yeah, so the setting boundaries is hard. I think it's a matter of, certainly if there's a power differential, it can be really hard to set boundaries. But I think that is an admirable goal. And as the author mentions, it may initially be met with resistance, but hopefully over time, you know, your colleague will understand.
Chris Dy:Yeah, for sure. I think that is, for example, one of the things is like if somebody sends you a paper and says, I need this back by tomorrow, if you want to be an author, that's just not reasonable. And I think that most people, you know, if they were stepped back from the situation would say, that's completely unreasonable. It's just a matter of feeling like you have the ability to say, Okay, next time, like, I'm happy to do this, I need a little more time. And the next time I need at least a certain amount of time, you know, three days a week or whatever, in order to do that. I mean, I think there's a way to do that. And to do it intentionally, but still very in a very collegial way.
Charles Goldfarb:Yes, a good example. It's a very good example. This has been fun. I missed our HBR discussions. It's been a while.
Chris Dy:Yes, it's a hit. In terms of when people talk about, you know, what they like about the podcast. You know, whenever I see some of our fans and meetings, I asked them what they liked about the podcast, and they say, Chuck, and then they say sports. And then they say, oh, yeah, the HBr articles are pretty good.
Charles Goldfarb:You are funny. You're funny. All right. Well, this has been fun. And I'd like to talk again soon, but I'll try to wait a full two weeks before getting back together with you. Yeah, I
Chris Dy:think we should do that. And I expect fully expect to see another Saturday 5am email from you. So
Charles Goldfarb:I've learned I'm learning Dr Dy. I'm always learning. I may look old, but I'm not too old to learn. I have a good one. You too. Hey, Chris. That was fun. Let's do it again real soon.
Chris Dy:Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter@handpodcast. Hey, Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?
Charles Goldfarb:Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?
Chris Dy:Mine is @ChrisDyMD spelled d-y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at handpodcast@gmail.com
Charles Goldfarb:And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast
Chris Dy:and be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out. Special thanks
Charles Goldfarb:to Peter Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time