The Upper Hand: Chuck & Chris Talk Hand Surgery

Chuck and Chris talk with Jen Barna, host of DocWorking podcast

September 11, 2022 Chuck, Chris, and Jen Barna Season 3 Episode 35
The Upper Hand: Chuck & Chris Talk Hand Surgery
Chuck and Chris talk with Jen Barna, host of DocWorking podcast
Show Notes Transcript

Season 3, Episode 35.  Chuck and Chris are joined by DocWorking Podcast host Jen Barna to discuss her podcast and services, discussing  key themes in including coaching, burnout, definitions of success and our individual approaches.  Jen introduces us to her podcast and services in the first half and then we discuss these themes in the second half.

Welcome to the Upper Hand Podcast.                                                                                        0:03
Introduction to Jen Barna, co-host of DocWorking Podcast                                         1:42
Coaching as a normal part of professional development.                                                10:22
Practical steps to consider to fight burnout                                                                             19:24
Success is very individual and you have to be honest with yourself.                          26:51

https://docworking.com
DocWorking provides coaching, courses, and resources designed specifically for physicians, with timely content, easy access, and transformational results...

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As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.  

Charles Goldfarb:

Welcome to the upper hand podcast where Chuck and Chris talk Hand Surgery.

Chris Dy:

We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all things hand surgery related from technical to personal.

Charles Goldfarb:

Please subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts.

Chris Dy:

And thank you in advance for leaving a review and leaving a rating wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Goldfarb:

Oh, hey, Chris.

Chris Dy:

Hey, Chuck, how are you?

Charles Goldfarb:

I'm doing really well, because we have a very special guest.

Chris Dy:

This is this is great. I'm excited. This is not a normal time for us to record. You know, somehow we made this work. And I'm super excited for our special guests

Charles Goldfarb:

We are in primetime it is is 6pm. Central, on a Tuesday night. And we have Jen Barna with us who is the host, and I think the creator of the Docworking podcast. And you know, we're going to hopefully open our audience's eyes to this podcast. Because as I have been reading about it, and listen to some episodes, it's really, really great.

Chris Dy:

Well, it certainly hits on topics that are relevant to everybody, whether you're a doc or a therapist, or somebody in training, because it very much gets to the, I guess, the generational note or the vibe of what's going on now. So I think it's gonna be great to have Jen on and, you know, I'm looking forward to learning as well. Absolutely. So,

Charles Goldfarb:

Jen, welcome. And at the risk of sounding rude, I would love for you to sort of introduce yourself, you are a physician. So just talk to us a little about the your pathway. And then of course, we want to figure it out and want you to help us understand the whole podcast.

Jen Barna:

Well, thank you so much, Chuck and Chris, for inviting me to be here with you. It's really an honor and a privilege to be here talking with you. And I'm looking forward to a fun conversation. I am that one of the co- hosts of DocWorking, the whole physician podcast, I co hosts the podcast now with master certified coach Jill Farmer who is also our lead coach at doc working, which is my company that focuses on providing coaching, with a combination of peer support, and other tools to help people throughout their lives as physicians to balance work in life and to really lead to their own definition of success. And we initially started the podcast with a third co host, Gabriella Denery, also a physician and coach, tremendous co host on the podcast, who has gone on to live what she, what she explains to her her clients that she would like to see them do, which is to pursue one of her side passions, which is music. So Gabriela is one of our coaches at DocWorking still, but has decided to step away from the podcast. But Jill and I have have thoroughly enjoyed bringing on tremendous guests. And really, the whole idea for the podcast came from the time when when I was starting doc working and bringing these, this coaching team together a team of experienced coaches who have been working with physicians for years and really understood how to help us to reframe, and arm ourselves with the tools to put ourselves back in the driver's seat of our own lives. I was learning so much from them, that I wanted to bring that to other physicians. And that's really how I brought them together. And then we spent about a year just determining how to take what they've learned and, and make it into programs. And so when we were doing that, we decided, well, let's start a podcast and let's start bringing some guests on and let's just hear physicians talk about their lives. And some of the ones who are out there doing interesting things they have, you know, really interesting hobbies. They are, you know, entrepreneurs who are leaders in the field, or maybe they're out there, you know, working in the trenches, and they have figured out a way to balance their own personal, you know, lives with with medicine. So it's been such a fabulous journey so far.

Charles Goldfarb:

So, so take us if you don't mind, let's back up a little bit. Take us to I don't know, residency and talk to us about what kind of physician you are in when you thought you you know, we're going to do this business because you're still a practicing physician, as I understand it, and just how that whole thing transpired.

Jen Barna:

Well, for me, actually, I think it started in medical school when my children were born both of my kids were born when I was a medical student, which back at that time, was almost unheard of. And, and so for me, the struggle all the way through residency and practicing was trying to figure out how to have what I felt was enough time with my family and also be an equal partner and, you know, be good at what I do and highly respected by my team, and that always wanting to be 100%, in both and 100% of my time in both, and there's no way to do that. So it was always a struggle. And I spent a lot of many years trying to figure it out for myself and figured out a number of things for myself, over those years, got the career, you know, got the schedule improved, and gradually kind of worked that out. But what I realized when I started working with coaches was that there are ways there are tools that are that we can learn that I wasn't even aware existed, that for me really made made a huge shift in the way that I saw my work. And it made me realize how many more options I had. And really made me redefine a lot of things that that I had let other people define for me, but up until then. So it was such a mind shifting experience that that I think it was a long trajectory for me, and it made me realize other people could could get this can get this so much earlier, and it can make a huge difference in their lives and their careers.

Chris Dy:

So I'm super, super impressed with how you took this from concepts and turn it into programs. And I think that hearing you speak you are clearly very passionate about it. And you've gone through a big journey yourself. So for those who are uninitiated to the doc working platform, say if you're either somebody in training, and then for the second part of it, somebody who is a practicing surgeon or a therapist, can you give me one episode each that those groups should download of your podcasts and be like, this is like where you start? This is the gateway to making this your second favorite podcast behind the upper hand.

Jen Barna:

Oh, wow. There are there are so many we're we're coming up on our on our 200th episode here in the next few days. And in fact, next week we have an episode coming up with Dr. Bill Sears. I don't know if you guys remember if you have if you have kids, you may have heard of him. He's a pediatrician who's written a lot of books about parenting and so I'm really excited to have that episode go live. We had a phenomenal resident recently on the podcast. His name is Russell Ladette. He is a resident who was finishing up in Louisiana and moving I believe he just recently moved to Indiana to start the next leg of his training. And just just has an incredible story. There are a number of there are a number of coaches who we we've had on the on the podcast over time. One that you guys know Rick Nemanik has been on the podcast with our lead coach Jill farmer, and he had a tremendous episode just talking about he's a very well known leadership expert. We just recently have had one an expert at the front of his field who is is on the on the leading edge of pain treatment. Dr. Howard Huebner just talking about emotional awareness and expression therapy and pain reprocessing therapy, which I think a lot of us as physicians are maybe not even aware of this, this whole new way of treating pain that's starting to see really tremendous results. Better than cognitive significantly better than cognitive behavioral therapy. So just it's a it's a broad spectrum of guests and we we've had a medical student coming up in a few weeks we have the youngest medical student I've ever known of coming on to the podcast. You may have seen her in the news, Elena, Analee. She is I believe she's a young teenager. I want to say I think she may be 13 or 14 years old, about to start medical school. So it's a broad range of, of guests that we have and we really try to talk with people about their lives outside of medicine, we've had a number of surgeons Come on, who've talked about their experience going through burnout, and how you know how their careers have, you know, taken a sharp turn, and then what happened after that, and hearing their stories has been really, really tremendous. Yeah,

Charles Goldfarb:

I bet. Um, so I have I have a lot of firsts. I think I'll make you guys laugh a little bit. I, I want to I want to look after I tell my little anecdote. I would love to just hear your opinions on coaching in general. But Monday, I was at Chris, I was at the OC. And they have recently- the OC is one of our offices- and they've started a new policy, where not policy, they start a new practice where they bring in an emotional support and emotional support dog. And just to like, whoever wants to go hug the dog, go hug the dog. And I kid you not, I'm a dog lover, obviously requires a dog lover to truly appreciate this. I spent two minutes with the dog who was climbing in my lap, and you know, licking my face, and I was totally rejuvenated, it was the most awesome thing ever. So I'm like, pushing for this to happen all the time. But in all seriousness, what is interesting what's happening at Washington University, which is, you know, for many years, and I will be, I feel very comfortable in saying when I was a resident coaches were, you know, in a surgical field a sign of weakness, and he wouldn't, he wouldn't talk about it. And I don't know if anybody had a coach, you know, that long ago. And now, all the chairs, every single chair of the departments has a coach, and many other people have a coach, and it is absolutely seen as a sign of someone who wants to improve themselves, not a sign of weakness or issues or anything like that. So the timing of your, at least for me, the timing of your podcasts, and your many, many episodes are really, really resonate. So who should have a coach? Jim?

Jen Barna:

Well, I love that you I, you bring up a number of things that I would love to touch on. First of all, to your point, every, every person on the planet could benefit from having a coach. And I've especially feel that every physician could benefit from having a coach, as healthcare professionals were in a high, you know, high stress environment. And we can already see, as you point out from other sectors that coaching has become normal is normal to see business executives have coaches and succeed. Further, you know, with coaching, actors have coaches, athletes have coaches, and physicians and other health care providers deserve coaching as a normal part of their professional and personal development. So to me, that's really a big mission of Doc working is what what we did is tried to bring together programs that were accessible to large numbers of people, our programs last a year, because we want the coaching to be ongoing, because these tools that you can learn that can really make a difference in your life. I mean, it takes a while to process these. And when you've never heard of these things to you know, the first time you hear of it, you process it on one level, and then as you revisit it over time, you understand it differently, and it applies to your life differently, and your goals change. So you know, you change and your understanding of these concepts evolves. So it really should be something that is ongoing. And I think you bring up a great point with the dog. Because we see, you know, we've been traveling around going to a lot of conferences about physician and health care, burnout, and a number of the healthcare systems that are coming forward and talking about what they're doing so far, recognizing that they need to be doing something to help address burnout. Some of the things they're doing are very pointed, like they're very specific. They last a certain amount of time, they're bringing people in to have a lunch and learn or a weekend workshop. And that's all great, but the long, the long term change can't happen unless there are long term resources available that are really integrated into people's professional schedules, which I know is really a cultural shift for us in medicine, that the concept that we could, but But what what we're saying is that even if you spend 10 minutes of focus time a week, you can make progress, especially if you're looking to the long term. And then when you incorporate pure support with that it can make a big difference.

Chris Dy:

So somebody who has been coach- curious for quite some time. And I don't know much about it. What logistically are nuts and bolts does having a coach entail? What does that look like? How many? How many meetings do you have? How often do you meet? What exactly do you talk about when you're getting started? Just because I don't know how to wrap my head around what that process is.

Jen Barna:

Yeah, it's really customizable. And of course, there are a lot of coaches out there. So I think it's important for people to find who really fits for them. What what we've done is we create, we have a whole program where people come in, and they get a foundational course, which is a digital course. But our coaches are on the platform inside the course. And so are the other people who are in our, in our community. And so you can interact, as you're taking the course and you can discuss concepts with the coaches, you can discuss anything with the peers that are there. And we've created a doctor's what we call a doctor's lounge, we have a PA and nurse practitioners lounge, and then we have a care team lounge, because people do in these different groups do have some different pain points. And they, it's helpful to be able to realize that you're not the only one having these pain points. In fact, I think that's another big problem for physicians is we tend to work in a bit of a silo, we, at least often don't talk about our own vulnerabilities. When we're at work, we talk about our patients, you know, we we try to solve problems for patients and, and we don't really make time in our day to actually just have normal conversations around the watercooler or you know, as as old fashioned, the old fashioned term would be. So being in a in a place where you feel safe, where you can talk with your peers about, you know, struggles that you have, and realize that you're not alone in those struggles that can be really helpful to combat isolation, which is another, you know, factor leading to burnout.

Charles Goldfarb:

Or there, I have a lot of thoughts flying through my head, but are there I've always thought, you know, thought about the process of having a coach. And for me, I think I'm sure I could use when I'm in many domains. But I've always thought I would want a coach who could give me career advice. Help me talk through, you know, what my career looks like today? What I want to look like it what I want it to look like tomorrow? Do you need a coach with certain expertise? Obviously, you want a coach that you can have a great relationship with, but I assume there's different expertise or different focus for different coaches. Is that fair?

Jen Barna:

That is fair and actually leading, combining your question with with Chris's, which I realize I answered and completely because in addition to the coaching on the platform, there's small group coaching that meets once a month, and that gives people a chance to actually have coaching in the context with with a small group and you're you're learning from each other, as well as from the coaches. And then there is an option for one on one coaching, depending on what type of program you want to have. And you could have those sessions weekly, monthly, you know, it really is up to the individual and what works for their schedule. So to answer your question, Chuck, I think that really what you what is an important thing to look for in a coach is someone who has experienced coaching other people in a similar type of career. And so it's my impression, and I'm not a coach, I'm just basically a recruiter of really amazing coaches. So I just, I'm still, you know, learning every day from them. But my impression is that when you have a coach who's experienced working with physicians and surgeons and has coached them, to achieve what they each individually are wanting to achieve, that's a coach who knows how to get you into a position to figure out what it is you want, and to accelerate your path to get there. So they're not really doing the work in a way. I mean, they're really just guiding you and helping you to maybe see things from a different perspective or brainstorm things are really just to be your thinking, your trusted thinking partner.

Charles Goldfarb:

That makes total sense. I was as as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, the parallel burnout issue. And how, you know, I've done a few things recently that I feel are really helpful for me. And I'm in by no means a coach or qualified to be one. But the things that I do and I'd be interested, Chris, and actually, Jen for you to say, if you're comfortable saying what personally you do. I think one of the best things I do is I every Tuesday operate with another surgeon. And I know Chris, you have that opportunity and that kind of as you said, we tend to work in silos lows and collaboration is unbelievably just great. I'm on a board of a medically related company. And there was a board meeting last Tuesday and I was going to just join by zoom. And I thought that that will be terrible. So I kind of had to figure out a way to get there I got there and being in person with a group, not doing my day to day felt really good as well. And those are two of the things that just resonated resonate with me recently. But Chris, I know you do different things to fight burnout, like, I can probably name them all, but I'll let

Chris Dy:

you took one of mine, which is collaborating with partners, you know, both in research and in in clinical care. So even though I spend 12,14 hours, sometimes reconstructing a brachial plexus with David Brogan, both of us look at each other at the end, and we say how was really fun, this is why we do it. And then especially when the patients come back, and you know, things have worked out the way we want them to, it's just the best feeling, you know, so and then also seeing successes and, you know, trials and tribulations with research with a partner is so much better. And, you know, just aside from professional as, you know, professional parts of it, I have found it very important to establish a regular exercise routine and have since being Chuck's fellow, he was very, very hard on me, among others were but no, oh, come on. And all seriousness, you know, I found that to be particularly important in training. And that's one of the things I talked to about the residents and fellows that work with me about taking care of themselves. You know, so for example, I had a resident recently who was working with me, and we were talking about, you know, things like sleep, and exercise and time with, with partners, and, you know, family and friends, and all those things, you know, really reinvigorate you and make you a better person at work as well. So I've found, you know, a little bit the hard way, what works for me, and I've just become fanatical about.

Charles Goldfarb:

And cooking, don't forget cooking.

Chris Dy:

I was I was going to stop shy of that. But I have inherited my mom's love language of showing affection for people by cooking for them. And I do enjoy that activity, whatever we can do it. So that's been since the pandemic since I was super bored at the beginning of the pandemic, and all I could do was cook.

Charles Goldfarb:

All right, Jen, tell us a couple things you do.

Jen Barna:

That's so cool. I love hearing that all of the things that you guys mentioned are so important. For me, I, you know, exercise has been something that I've really had to build in and relationships at work are somewhat difficult. I'm a radiologist. So you know, I really can't collaborate with someone on on cases as I'm interpreting them. And so it can be a little bit isolating, but the team itself, I don't, I tend to work alone as a radiologist, but with a team, with a team of other with techs and nurses, not so much with other radiologists, because my group is a bit scattered. And so building relationships and rapport with my team has been really helpful over the years, and I really enjoy working with them and knowing what you know, what they're doing outside of work. And, and then, as far as personal personally, you know, the thing that I've found that has been really interesting, working with with coaches is these there are so many ways to sort of dive in deeper, you know, with mindfulness and learning how to process stress, and ways to strengthen resilience. I think we're all I think we wouldn't be where we are, if we weren't already resilient as healthcare workers were more resilient than the average population. But resilience is kind of like a muscle as well. And you really, it's not static. It's something that we can benefit from learning how to strengthen that. And I think, you know, the key is just that. For, for me, you know, it's relationships and being with people that I really care about as much as possible and finding ways to have the flexibility to do that. And every person is different. And so putting yourself in a position where you can try to define what matters most to you. And really think about that and give that some thought so that when you're making decisions, you're actually making those decisions based on your knowledge of what matters most to you, which I it's helpful to set boundaries, which I think can be a challenge for us as physicians as well at least I guess I'm speaking from personal experience, but having been through some jobs in my career Early in my career where I didn't know how to draw the line. And, and not accept a ridiculous workload. You know, I think learning how to draw boundaries is helpful at work and outside of work. So there are so many there's so many nuances to to preventing burnout. But really the key is to, I think, define success for yourself. And then as you move along the path toward that the side effect is preventing burnout.

Chris Dy:

So that actually leads into the question I wanted to ask you, as we kind of wind things down. How do you can you give any of our listeners some kind of exercise or question to answer for themselves when they tried to define what success is for themselves? Because I think for me that was was an is an important part of finding my compass.

Jen Barna:

Yeah, I do think that figuring out what success means to you is more complex question than it initially sounds like it is to, at least from my perspective, it has been, and I think, I think the question to ask yourself is, first of all, how you define success for yourself? And secondly, to tease out your, from your definition, how much of that is being super imposed by the culture you grew up in other people who are influential in your life? And, and really begin to narrow down what what is actually success to you? And what actually matters to you, as opposed to what you've learned? Is success in matters?

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah, that's great. And it's hard in academics, because, you know, the residents come through and they see our lives and maybe some of them think we are successful, you know, but our success I love that. I mean, success is very individual. And I always tell residents and fellows when they're looking for jobs, you know, it is a you know, you have to be honest with yourself first. Before you can be you know, go out there and find the right job for you that will make you happy and lead to a happy life. So, well Jen, I am so grateful for your joining us and I'm so grateful for Rick, for you know, making me aware of your podcast because I had no idea. And I like I said I've listened to a handful and will continue to listen and I need this. I know Chris needs this. But we are we are really grateful for you're joining us and this was super fun.

Jen Barna:

Thank you so much. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Look forward to talking with you again.

Chris Dy:

Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Dan.

Charles Goldfarb:

Hey, Chris. That was fun. Let's do it again real soon.

Chris Dy:

Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter at hand podcast. Hey, Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?

Charles Goldfarb:

Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?

Chris Dy:

Mine is @ChrisDy spelled d-y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at handpodcast@gmail.com.

Charles Goldfarb:

And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast

Chris Dy:

and be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out. Special thanks to Peter

Charles Goldfarb:

Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time