The Upper Hand: Chuck & Chris Talk Hand Surgery

Chuck and Chris Talk National Societies

August 07, 2022 Chuck and Chris Season 3 Episode 30
The Upper Hand: Chuck & Chris Talk Hand Surgery
Chuck and Chris Talk National Societies
Show Notes Transcript

Season 3, Episode 30.  Chuck and Chris answer a listener question regarding national society involvement.  We share our opinions on societies, leadership, leadership training, traveling fellowships, and so much more!

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Charles Goldfarb:

Welcome to the upper hand podcast where Chuck and Chris talk Hand Surgery.

Chris Dy:

We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all things hand surgery related from technical to personal.

Charles Goldfarb:

Please subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts.

Chris Dy:

And thank you in advance for leaving a review and leaving a rating wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Goldfarb:

Oh, hey, Chris.

Chris Dy:

Hey, Chuck, how are you?

Charles Goldfarb:

I'm fantastic. How are you?

Chris Dy:

I'm fantastic. It's the start of a new academic year for hand fellowships. That's always exciting.

Charles Goldfarb:

Today was day one. And I have to say it was a good one.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, so we were fortunate always to get fantastic fellows in our program. And we had two of our fellows start this year. And we typically are three but one is joining us a little bit later this year. And the two fellows that have started are fantastic. And it's been great to to show our appreciation to last year's fellows as well. We had a nice series of graduation event last weekend.

Charles Goldfarb:

You know, a couple things about that first thinks you did a great job of kind of planning a graduation weekend. That's kind of a first I guess, I would say, and, you know, I've been pushing the department to support all these financially, because it just it just feels so right. I mean, all of us as Han partners getting together feels great. And obviously celebrating our fellows. You know, it was really fun. And it was just it was great. It was a great weekend.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, we started with a graduation dinner at one of our favorite restaurants in the area had a nice space back there had some graduation toasts from from the faculty for the outgoing fellows. And then we continue to the the Boyer tradition of the pool party. But as many of you know, I have a pool now. So it's now the de family pool party, which was a ton of fun to do.

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah, you did a great job with that pool. I wish I could get rid of my pool, but your kids are the right age to enjoy it. And I know they are.

Chris Dy:

There's a lot of jumping off of the various things around here and they had a great time. My son kept asking me why I wasn't getting in the pool because it's a pool party. So I was talking to my work friends and eventually I gave in once most people left and then I just sat there and caught my daughter while she jumped off of stuff for a solid hour. It was fun, though.

Charles Goldfarb:

So I don't want to get into dicey territory. But I know you gave the fellows a small gift. And I partnered with Linley to give fellows a small gift I also give him a Christmas present. But what do you mind sharing what you gave him? Or is it top secret?

Chris Dy:

Yeah, no, it's not top secret. It's actually part of the gift was the same book I gave last year as fellows. And I really I've given it to a lot of trainees, if not the physical book, the recommendation, but it's a book by an NYU business professor named Scott Galloway, who I've quoted, I think on this podcast before, kind of a brash person, brash personality, more of a hot take kind of person. But he has a great book called the algebra of happiness, which I think is it's not for everybody, his style is not for everybody. But it's an incredibly simple read, if anything, it will stir you to think about things. And what's going to define, you know, happiness for you. So at this time of the year, I think it's great for anybody transitioning either from training into practice, or you know, at a point of uncertainty in their lives, I thought was fantastic. And I know that you share the book with them, too.

Charles Goldfarb:

I did. I will say first that I am a Scott Galloway fan. I read that book many years ago. And I have to say, I have listened to his podcast and his he has a joint podcast that listen to a little less than I used to, but I love the algebra of happiness. It's simple. It's spot on. And you always know we're Professor Galloway stands. And I guess I would say that in a good way. I also pick a business school professor. And I think I share this book with you at one point, the I really, really like Clayton Christensen, who is passed away. Harvard Business School professor, and it's the book is how will you measure your life? And, you know, I've tried, I've tried to get my wife to read it. And she started saying, you know, I guess it's just not for everyone, but I think could be it's so good. That's so good.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, no, the I remember when you when you brought that over and kindly gave me a copy, and I read it. And the lasting legacy of that book in our household is that we have a family mantra, which we started with the kids but I often have to remind myself when I'm having a rough time in clinic and any or that we have a sign in our kitchen that says this in our family, we are kind patient and respectful. And the number of times that I've had my kids repeat it that I've had to repeat to myself because you know I asked them what they did today that was kind of patient and respectful. And I hold myself accountable to that to those of you that have worked with me at times may say that maybe that's not always the case, but I do my best As to hold our every member of our family to that

Charles Goldfarb:

aspirational just like your other mantra, 'we do hard things'.

Chris Dy:

Oddly enough, the the peloton aphorisms have been leaking down into the family and my my four year old daughter has started to say that she does hard things because you know we do. So that actually before we get to our topic, I wanted to put you on the hot seat. How are you doing with your fitness journey that we've described so many times in this podcast?

Charles Goldfarb:

Oh, this this, I think, thanks for asking. I think the some in the listener group will appreciate this. So I am 52 I feel like I'm young at heart. I used to be you know, everything revolved around sports and, and as my body ages faster than my brain, I hope I have to give things up. So basketball is absolutely my favorite thing that we'll do. I don't play basketball anymore, but I have run a lot and I've been biking a lot and kind of just hitting the gym a little bit more, which is fantastic. Unfortunately, about three or four weeks ago, I tore my meniscus and was hobbling around for a while got one of our partners to aspirate a bunch of fluid off my knee give me some steroid and I definitely feel better. I'm trying to avoid surgery which every wise surgeon always tries to do. But I am back on the bike. I had a great ride today to work and I came home set a lot of family then I got back on the bike to ride to vote as smooth as voting day in Missouri. And yeah, so I'll pretty good. I'm pretty good and certainly the peloton still plays roll.

Chris Dy:

That sounds great. You know every time there is one of our physiatrist Jeremy Hartman who likes to play basketball and talks about playing basketball a lot. And he's like yeah, every time everybody's like Kent Goldfarb can ball. Goldfarb can really ball is like you know, nobody's seen it in a while. We're not quite sure, but you certainly have some Al Bundy- esque reputation around here. And many of the listeners may not understand the Al Bundy records.

Charles Goldfarb:

I would say that's from the older days, the older days, unfortunately.

Chris Dy:

So we had a great submission to to our mailbag. And I wanted to let him know if they have an episode suggestion. We're still working through some of the ones that we received within the last couple of months. But please send us a note Han podcast@gmail.com. And this is this is one from Sahi, who just graduated from Hand fellowship in North Carolina. So congratulations and is joining the faculty at Loyola University in the fall. Great people up there. And he really enjoys the the upper hand podcast, so thank you sorry for, for tuning in. So saw he was wondering if we wouldn't mind discussing how residents, fellows and young faculty can get involved with various professional societies. So the orthopedic Academy, the AOA, the hand society, they enter sociation and for others, perhaps some of the plastic surgery societies, too, would be great to hear about your own involvement and experience, as well as advice for newcomers who wants to get involved meaningfully, including committee and leadership opportunities. I know that some of the societies also do leadership, training courses and seminars. So we would appreciate your thoughts on what's out there and what has been personally useful in your own careers. So and then specifically calls you about Chuck for being a for being a Bunnell fellow. So talking about going abroad. And we know that saw he has had fantastic mentors, including Glenn Gaston, who's been on the podcast recently inside, he shouts, shouts Glenn out here. But hopefully, you know, this is a question that that you can answer for us, Chuck, and I'll contribute a little bit perhaps,

Charles Goldfarb:

oh, I think you have a lot to contribute. And I would say that I don't want the therapists who are listening, or the students who are listening to say, Oh, this is not for me, I think the take home from this is, you know, can be helpful for all so first of all, what I've noticed, trend wise, is that every society that I'm involved with, is concerned about membership, and how to appeal to the younger generation, all of them. And it's an existential, I don't want to say crisis, but it's an existential discussion, because these societies have existed on volunteerism. And, you know, just honestly, contributions of time and money and, and expertise and, and I think there's a little fear that that may not continue in the future. So all societies are trying to figure out how to relate to younger potential members. And they're doing it in a lot of different ways. I'll stop there and say, do you agree with that?

Chris Dy:

Well, I mean, I think it's harder for me because I don't have as much of a memory of what you know what things were like in those professional societies. Because, you know, I'm younger than you, Chuck. So I just finished training, you know, less than 10 years ago. It's not, I'm not the young guy anymore, for sure. But yeah, I finished training seven years ago. So, you know, I kind of know the societies as they are now obviously, the pandemic has affected things a lot in terms of how Are Making people question the relevance of these, not necessarily societies themselves, but also the meetings that you would go to the conferences you would commit yourself to do, you automatically have to travel to these things now. And I think that people really questioning the role of those things in their, in their schedule is one that more immediately societies are going to have to deal with. But in terms of the, you know, questioning the participation and the value of participating, I personally think we're both obviously biased. I think the hand society is really good at being in tune with, with what matters to members. And, you know, I think that they're a little more progressive with that, then than some of the other societies I've been involved with. But, yeah, I think it's something that generationally, things are going to continue to change. And you know, people's priorities may have shifted and refocused as we're emerging out of the pandemic now.

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah, and the role of webinars for education as opposed to formal society memberships, and all that, you know, is in evolution right in front of our eyes. I still believe strongly in the role for these societies. But I, you know, I wonder, I wonder what it looks like, in the future. You know, I think getting involved early, is really valuable. And a lot of the societies are, you know, providing avenues for early involvement, whether that's leadership programs, or simple scholarships to attend the meetings. I know, the handSteady has that the OTA has that a lot of them have it in the Academy will speak Academy as a resident Forum, which is massive. And so I think all of these societies are looking for ways to get residents and fellows involved because you get those people involved early, and you want them to continue on. And that's great. I mean, that's absolutely great. And what the leaders of these societies are having to figure out is, you know, what do we provide that will make this a value add and a young member, young potential members life? In some of the old stuff like closed societies, I don't think people are interested in that so much anymore. And formality is a little, you know, the answer that used to be a pretty darn formal society. Now, it still is more than some, but it's not quite as formal as it used to be.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, it's definitely not, not what it used to be. And I think that there's still some orthopedic sub specialties that have closed societies. So the hip society, the knee society, the ASES, you know, I believe those are all closed. And I don't know how well that's gonna stand in the next, you know, couple of decades. You know, to your point about, you know, residents being involved, if you're a resident, you know, that wants to be involved in organizations, the key is just, you know, getting an opportunity and showing up and doing the work. And you'll just continue to do that like, like Chuck Goldfarb, like a workman hammering nails, and you'll get noticed, because it's a volunteer gig, as Chuck pointed out, so people will fade over time, and people will get assigned to committees and not respond to emails and not show up for committee meetings and won't do the work. If you show up, you're interested to talk to the committee chair, and you get the work done that we'll get around. Because all of us are always looking for people to help us with stuff. And if Chuck Goldfarb is the the person that gets the job done, we'll keep asking Chuck until he says no. So that honestly is the best way. And I think that it's good that you know, a lot of organizations now have more accessible, they're putting residents on the formal committees, they develop the resident leadership group, like the the Academy does. So there's opportunities for people to show their stuff. Because very much before it was still I wouldn't say nepotistic, but it was pretty darn close in terms of you had to kind of get, I guess the word to say now is sponsored, you know, in terms of getting there and you know, being shown the given the chance to show what you got.

Charles Goldfarb:

I think that's really well said and I would still think that you know, having a sponsor, that is a big way in whatever organization back you can make the path more, you know, can make it quicker, can make it you know, advancements, so to speak or involvement easier, but it is absolutely not required. And honestly, you don't have to have done a residency or fellowship with someone to develop relationship and 2022. You know, email someone and just show an interest. So I would say, and I'm really going to echo Chris, there are two major principles for success. The first is, as Chris said, do the work. It's not hard. Like the committee if you apply for a committee, get on the committee engaged, because there's gonna be really smart people on that committee, who will teach you something about life about the committee work, whatever. Take it seriously, do what's asked and you will go, you will go far, which is just an incredibly low bar. And the second thing is apply for things besides committee, but here's the caveat. Apply for things understanding that you may not get it. You may not get it the first time or the second time and don't get discouraged. Just try to learn from it, try to grow from it. And just understand that sometimes you have to stand in line a little bit, which doesn't always appeal to me. And sometimes these things just take time, but the process will be valuable for you, your name will get out there. And patience really is a virtue in these situations.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, I mean, they're just, you know, because we both know the Hansel side crew. Well, there are a number of people that are on council now that literally just did exactly what you said, they went to committee meetings, they engaged with the chair, they did the work, then they became the committee chair, they did the work, and then they became a division director. So it really is just showing up and doing the work, which again, sounds really super simple, because it is, but it's a step that many of us don't pass through. I'm guilty of it on certain committees, where I'm just not as engaged where I end up probably not, you know, fulfilling the role that I was supposed to. And I try not to do that. But you know, as everybody's played gets Fuller, and fuller, there are certain things that have to go by the wayside. You know, one, one piece of advice that I got, and I don't know how relevant it is now, and I don't know whether you were told this before, I was told to kind of pick two societies, like two groups and just kind of say, I'm gonna invest energy in these two, and see where it goes, and then reassess, you know, periodically saying, Do I still want to invest energy? You know, there's one organization where I put some energy in, and I always thought I wanted to be super involved in it. And now I'm not, so I've kind of, you know, moved into a different area. So, I don't know if that's advice that you give people or that you ever received.

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah, I mean, we can't do it all. And you know, you, I agree with you to pick one, two, maybe three organizations to really dive deep. And that's very fair advice. And don't make the mistake of thinking you're invaluable no matter what position you're in, the work will get done with or without you. And it's really a question of, what can you get out of doing the work and meeting the people? And that's what I would follow with and say, you know, why? Why do, Chris and I feel strongly about these organizations? Well, one is when we enjoy teaching, and we absolutely learn through these organizations, but the other is meeting people or developing a deeper relationship with people, again, who are super smart and super talented, have a different perspective, live in a different place. And it's really super fun to get to know people in a different way.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, it's all about me, I think it's the relationships were the biggest things. You know, I guess it's, I don't want to say it's just networking, because I think that can carry a certain connotation, but it is getting to know people. And I think that that's one of the one of the hardest things about virtual meeting committee meetings, you know, over the last two and a half years, it's much easier to not pay attention, turn your video off, when you have a Zoom meeting, you know, as opposed to when you're sitting across the table from somebody, they can tell when you're looking at your phone. So I think that I'm hoping like one of the things I've been on the hand society's clinical grants Review Committee, and I've loved it. But I just wished that meeting was in person, because you know, those interactions can be so rich, we can talk about academic work, you know, kind of really nerd out about stuff, but you just get to know people when you when you look them in the eye when you're talking to them, you know, the coffee breaks, etc, and the recreational activities. So I missed that. And I'm hoping that as you know, hopefully things continue to improve, or we get used to this normality. You know, we get back to that.

Charles Goldfarb:

I say, I'll share one observation that I have. And I hope some of the listeners disagree or see it differently. But one trend seems to be that people are going all in and expecting and hoping to be leaders at a younger and younger age. And I find that fascinating. And I actually don't think it's ideal, for two reasons. And far be it for me to judge others. But there's a reason that, you know, in your maybe mid 50s, or potentially late 50s, you have a lot, you've learned a lot, you've interacted a lot. And I think you bring more to the table if you are a primary or secondary leader of an organization. And the other part that I have I struggle with is family time. And if I'm truly engaged in organization, this takes hours each week and it takes travel and it takes you away from your family. So again, that's not for me to tell you or anyone else how to handle it. I just don't understand it. I don't think there's it's the right trend to see younger and younger leaders.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, no, I, I haven't thought about that way, at least explicitly. But you know, I've started to question some of my time commitments, and really trying to refocus on the things that are I think are appropriate for me and it brings me happiness. You know, right now for me it isn't enough of a challenge to balance, you know, and even, you know, a practice that continues to get busier, a family life that continues to get busier with the kids, you know, being more aware of who's around and when they're around and on the sleep, like sporting activities for the kids have started to pick up after school stuff. So it's just the the treadmill keeps getting turned up in that regard, and then trying to manage my research program. And it's like, where is what other time is there? So I'm guilty of having to cancel a trip to a committee meeting, you know, that's coming up, just because I just couldn't do it. It just didn't fit the calculus, and I felt awful about it. But it just didn't work. So I get what you're saying. And I think that that is a truthful statement, that is not going to sit well with with many, but it will probably resonate with many more.

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah, essentially, when you get old like me, and you know, like it's easier at home. Youngest is here in high school. And, and, you know, it's just very different calculus, which, again, just just my two cents, but I think I hope I hope some listeners comment on that.

Chris Dy:

The leadership programs, what do you think? That was the one question that saw he brought up, you know, the Hansard society as a young leaders program, we talked about the academy during the resident Leaders Program. You know, there seem to be more programs to develop people's leadership skills, perhaps in response to come of that generational urge that you just discussed.

Charles Goldfarb:

Yeah. So and the AOA is another organization that it's interesting to watch the AOA who's done this for a long time they do it really well. There's a resident Leadership Forum, there's a kind of a young member Leadership Forum, they do it really well. And of course, the AOA is all about leadership. But the subspecialty societies are all doing it too now, and the Academy's getting into leadership. So leadership is a serious buzzword. And I think you can approach it in different ways. And you can get leadership education for many places on your home turf, if you're an academic institution, there's often academic educator, or academic leadership programs join institution with or without education built in. So a lot of different ways to go. They're not all the same. You know, they're not all the same at all. I really, I am biased a bit. I think the AOA does it really well. It's not to say other organizations don't do it well, but again, it's somewhat become competitive, because everyone's trying to have a stick to attract young members and bring them in and not only teach them leadership, but then have them be leaders. And so I think we are lucky in a sense that we have a lot of different directions to learn.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, and I think that the hands society has taken a more experiential learning component to it with their young leaders program, at least when I did it. A few years back, it was, you know, let's, let's get together as a group, let's facilitate some discussions, let's dive in issues and your team will come up with, you know, a solution to a problem that is faced that the membership is facing, and then you'll also get to see how the council interacts. So no, didactics there, but I thought that was an incredibly helpful and informative weekend. And then they also position their young leaders on committees. So you're automatically have a foot in the door, which is nice. Versus the AOA on top of the resident Leadership Forum, the Emerging Leaders Forum that they have at the annual meetings with, you know, specific presentations and didactics over a day or two. They also have this, you know, Apex Leadership Program, which is something that some of our partners in faculty at WashU have gone through. And I've heard great things, but it's heavily didactic. And it's feels like more like a business school, like a business school camp type experience. And I haven't done that, to this point, and something that's intrigued me. But the thing that held me back to the year honest with you at the time commitment right now, it just feels like a little bit much for me right now, at this point in my life.

Charles Goldfarb:

I think that's that's really well said, and it is interesting. And even in our department, we're trying to figure out ways to get younger faculty members, on committees and on leadership discussions just for perspective. So it's really smart. I think that that all the societies are doing that because there's a valuable perspective in the simple recognition that young members bring a valuable approach that's different than the old guys. I think it's great.

Chris Dy:

So are you backpedaling on your comments about how young people shouldn't be in leadership roles?

Charles Goldfarb:

No, not at all. I am simply saying that young people should be involved but you know, decide carefully if you really want to get in that leadership treadmill, where you're, you're jumping and jumping to the ultimate leadership spot.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, it's funny. When I was a medical student, very aspirational student, I knew the exact leadership roles and national societies and department leadership that I wanted, and now it's like, wow, I really different opinions on that now. You know, it's just, once you get closer to the fire, you kind of see how it goes. Yeah, for sure. So somebody asked about traveling fellowships, and you were selected for the very prestigious Sterling Bunnell fellowship for the hand society. And I've I'm still completing my 2019 government and travelling scholarship and the hand society. I'm almost done. I've got one more trip to go. So maybe you could provide some perspective on that. We also know there's different programs to for example, the AOA has got a traveling a series traveling fellowships, the or any orthopedic residency goes to orthopedic trauma has an orthopedic traveling fellowship, even a peripheral nerve society and as a traveling fellowship. So what's your take on these opportunities?

Charles Goldfarb:

Well, I would say two things. One, you don't need a ward or official traveling fellowship to travel and learn, it helps to have a mentor to put you in contact. But, you know, if you're willing to invest your own money, you will find willing hosts across this country and across the world. The benefit of the quote, official traveling fellowships, the awards is one, there's some prestige to think there's probably an easier path to find willing, wonderful hosts. And it just, it can help you it can help set you on a path, which is fantastic. And the Manal traveling Fellowship, which was now many years ago was fantastic. For me, I met people I didn't know, I considered carefully what I could learn from different people in different spots across the globe. And some people do, you know, a bunch of trips, I chose to do three really primary trips. And it was fantastic. And I'm still friends with those people today. And I still consider them mentors. And so I think if you, you know, it's certainly easier in academics to focus on things like that, because it does take you away from practice. And so but man, it was really a great experience. I think despite your COVID delays, you would agree with much of what I've said.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, the the government traveling fellowship has been fantastic. And you know, I was fortunate enough, when, when I was starting on as the faculty doctor, government itself also granted me some funds and some time, most importantly, to travel. And I think that that was definitely a career catalyst and accelerant. I think that, when you do it depends on what you want to get out of it. The temptation is to do it right after finishing fellowship, I think you're not going to learn as much to be very honest with you, I think that you personally will grow more if you start in practice, kind of see how you do things that take a trip, and then keep doing stuff and then take a trip, assuming you have the time and the funds to do something like that. I'd spread it out a bit. Because you're gonna get so much more out of it after you see how you want to do things after you experience some of the challenges and you know, the right questions to ask. I don't know, I'll be very honest with you. I don't need to ascribe it when I go to these places, because that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for picking a brain in the during the coffee and the surgeons lounge, asking about, you know, you know, what indications are and you know, what their experience has been stuff that you're not going to get when somebody writes an article when they talk on the podium. And yes, of course, there are a lot of really cool technical things that you learned. But that's not the primary reason for going. Yeah, so there are travelling fellowships like that which you can set up on your own or you can get the rest of society. There are other traveling fellowships that are more group based. So you're part of a cohort, you know, say for example, the North American traveling fellowship for the AOA or the American British Canadian fellowship through the AOA and you go as a cohort for like a solid four to six weeks, which is a huge time commitment, huge ask of your partners and most importantly, of your family. I remember, during one of my monthly mentoring meetings with Ken Yamaguchi, he said, Chris, you got to do this. And the next month that we met, he said, Okay, so what's how's your North American fellowship application company? All I said, as my wife Ken said, No, go there's no way I'm doing that. And he's like, you're absolutely right to not apply them.

Charles Goldfarb:

I think that's, I think that's it, I don't want to again, project it feels generational to me, it was a no go for me, as much as it would have been great. I couldn't ask that of my wife and I had kids. So a lot, but there's no doubt you really develop close bonds with people, the people who've done the ABC and the North American, you know, speak volumes about it and really rave about the experience. But it you know, it takes the right person and the right setting and the right support to do it. So it's good for some maybe not good for all.

Chris Dy:

Yeah, it's great for, you know, for developing what we would call now a brand, you know, in terms of what you're known for, because you have to give a talk when you go to these visiting various institutions when you travel as a group. Now, all of a sudden, you're known as you know, so and so person who, who really studies this topic, so it's good for that. There are clearly different ways to do that in 2022. But it is good to mix old and new techniques. So I think we've tried to answer his question as much as we can. If, if any listeners want to give their suggestions, feel free to let us know on social or send us an email and podcasts@gmail.com and we'll be definitely sharing those as pearls come in.

Charles Goldfarb:

I love it. Thank you and good to see you. As always. Chris, that was fun. Let's do it again real soon.

Chris Dy:

Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter at hand podcast. Hey, Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?

Charles Goldfarb:

Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?

Chris Dy:

Mine is @ChrisDyMD spelled d-y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at hand podcast@gmail.com.

Charles Goldfarb:

And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast

Chris Dy:

and be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.

Charles Goldfarb:

Special thanks to Peter Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand come back next time