Season 4, Episode 15.
Chuck and Chris discuss community and what it is so important. We begin, however, discussing kids, coaching and other activities before pivoting into a discussion on burnout and how community helps! More and more brunout is a topic that matters. While time away from work and time with family is one burnout remedy, another is connection or, for the purposes of this discussion, community. We discuss 7 important communities (actually more) that engage us and give us a connection that matters. Join us!
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://bit.ly/3iHGFpD
See www.practicelink.com/theupperhand for more information from our partner on job search and career opportunities.
Please complete NEW Survey: bit.ly/3X0Gq89
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
Complete podcast catalog at theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.
Season 4, Episode 15.
Chuck and Chris discuss community and what it is so important. We begin, however, discussing kids, coaching and other activities before pivoting into a discussion on burnout and how community helps! More and more brunout is a topic that matters. While time away from work and time with family is one burnout remedy, another is connection or, for the purposes of this discussion, community. We discuss 7 important communities (actually more) that engage us and give us a connection that matters. Join us!
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://bit.ly/3iHGFpD
See www.practicelink.com/theupperhand for more information from our partner on job search and career opportunities.
Please complete NEW Survey: bit.ly/3X0Gq89
As always, thanks to @iampetermartin for the amazing introduction and conclusion music.
Complete podcast catalog at theupperhandpodcast.wustl.edu.
Welcome to the UpperHand Podcast where Chuck and Chris talk hand surgery.
Chris Dy:We are two hand surgeons at Washington University in St. Louis here to talk about all things hand surgery related from technical to personal.
Charles Goldfarb:Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Dy:And thank you in advance for leaving a review and leaving a rating wherever you get your podcast.
Charles Goldfarb:Hey, Chris.
Chris Dy:Hey, Chuck, how are you?
Charles Goldfarb:I'm fantastic. How are you?
Chris Dy:I am great. I have a I have my youth baseball coaching debut today. Super excited about that a little nervous? Yes, because I have no idea what I'm doing. Because the practice schedule has been such where I cannot attend. I'm fourth assistant to the assistant coach, I think you know, the the first two games we were out of town, third game was canceled for weather. And here we are with the fourth game. So it's going to be an interesting day, never played baseball went to one half League Baseball camp when I was in middle school. And that's it. So I do like to be out there. So it'll be fun.
Charles Goldfarb:It'll be a beautiful day are you going to be like a third base coach with waving your arms say the kid home for flight at the plate.
Chris Dy:I might have the first aid kit, I think there. It's actually a coach pitch situation right now for first grade. So our one of our orthopedic partners Ryan Nunley had the joy of being one of the coaches pitching a few weeks ago. So hopefully we're better staff today.
Charles Goldfarb:There's a little pressure there. I remember those days, it's been a few. But I remember those days, there's pressure to put that pitch right over the plate.
Chris Dy:Yeah, they they haven't seen this stuff yet. So intentional or unintentional? Yes,
Charles Goldfarb:let's be clear, you're not your goal is not to strike out your own kids.
Chris Dy:You know what I'm gonna put it over the plate, we're gonna have to make sure we check the hands for the rosin before I go in, it's gonna be very, very tough thing. Well, I'm sure we'll have the MLB style pitch clock too, because that certainly moved the game along. And all parents probably want to be in and out within an hour.
Charles Goldfarb:The craziest thing and I hope some of our listeners can appreciate this, the crazy thing is when you go from Coach pitch where kids actually do get hits, and then you go to kid pitch, and it becomes brutal, like, brutal, like that's when most people give up baseball, because sometimes the kids can't get over the plate, if they do get over the plate. So when there's too much velocity, the kids can't get a hit, it just becomes brutal.
Chris Dy:Too many too many variables, too many moving parts there.
Charles Goldfarb:I love it, I am starting to miss those days, kids sports or, you know, it can be way over the top, I think every listener will appreciate that kids sports are way out of control in every way. But they're also just, they're, they're great. And they're just great. It's
Chris Dy:interesting, I don't want to take us too far off our intended topic. I know we're, you know, kind of make sure that we end on time. But you know, the I remember talking with Ken Yamaguchi, who, who was a very influential mentor to me early on, we were talking about kind of things that you want to make time for anyway to make, you know, talked about how he made time to be a coach for his son's baseball team, and how he would clear his schedule appropriately and everything so that that kind of was in my ear. And then, you know, my son started playing basketball recently, and says like, oh, maybe I'll try to coach or whatever. I never made it to any of the stuff except for like, maybe one or two practices there for the games. But I was like, you know, again, like the third assistant coach on the bench or whatever. My kid really liked having me be part of the coaching staff. So he that suckered me into joining the baseball coaching staff, which has not I've been dead weight so far. So I don't even think I've responded to as many emails as I should. So,
Charles Goldfarb:you know, it's an interesting dynamic. I think if it's sort of rec sports, I think it's it's all positive and your kids young is all positive. But if it gets beyond Rec and your kid starts getting a little older, there is that risky dynamic of how do you interact with your own kid and I, I've never coached my son in basketball or soccer. I did help to coach my daughter in basketball, which is not her first sport, or her best sport, but she was good. And they had a really good team and I was sort of an assistant. And it was fun, but I had to tread carefully when those competitive juices get going and the more competitive leagues
Chris Dy:right right you will you can't make your daughter do too many run too many suicides.
Charles Goldfarb:Sure, or yell too loudly. I also learned in your I don't know how much Evie is getting into sports in these kind of competitive sports. But there's a very different interaction, at least in my family, between my interactions with my son and my daughters regarding sports, it's just completely different, what they want, what they if they care what I say how I interact with them is really fascinating.
Chris Dy:Yeah, it's, you know, not to delve too far into the kind of gender stereotypes kind of thing then I think we've been pretty laissez faire with a lot of this but my son has really turned into kind of the the boy like stereotypical boy who loves playing hockey, baseball, loves going fishing, and once he's he's egging me on for this camping trip that we're trying to plan. So he's all like, pretty classic. And our daughter is gonna turn following some of the same things into Have you know she's really, really into gymnastics and a dance and loves it and it's been really fun to see that. She has a T ball game this weekend too. So we'll see how that goes. But you know, she's she's enjoyed some of the sports stuff too. We're just gonna let let them find their way. Um, she does a lot of sports as you know, tagging along with little with her big brother. There's a lot of driveway hockey.
Charles Goldfarb:Absolutely. And I understand you went on a brief fishing trip with your son. Yeah, that
Chris Dy:was that was super fun. I didn't grow up fishing. You know, even though I have a lot of excuses. But you know, when people ask if I ski I say no, I grew up in Florida. If people asked if I fish I say no, my dad got seasick. Every time we went out on the water. He always wanted a fish, but he just couldn't tolerate it. So I never grew up doing that. So we you know, on some random trips and stuff, we've done some fishing and we you know, during the height of the pandemic, one of our partners and a good friend of mine, Marshall Burks, we would do a lot of like Lake House vacations, and he's really really good with the fishing and so kind of a fun and so then I decided like let's just go ahead and do a trip like let's hire a guide and go out and do something because clearly I'm not the guide. So it was money well spent. So we got a guy to take us out on Lake Tana como out by Branston incredibly fun, perfectly paced day, he knew that we had a seven year old with us and he needed to make him feel like he was catching fish. And even gave my son a nickname by the end of the trip because my son spent a lot of the first part of the trip just eating chips. So he went through an entire bag of Lay's, which he never gets to eat at home. So I think that was part of his enjoyment, to the point where the guy gave him a nickname of pork chop by the end of the trip.
Charles Goldfarb:I love it. I don't know if I've shared one of my more embarrassing moments, but I'm not afraid to share it. And I've never really been a fisherman, or really a golfer and some of that may be my own patience and the time investment required for these things. But did I've ever shared my Stern fellowship fishing outing trip? I don't know if I have
Chris Dy:no, but I think you should, because there are some stern fellows who are listening. Yeah. So
Charles Goldfarb:Dr. Stern, belongs to a fishing club north of Cincinnati. And each year you'd go on an overnight to this club and a sort of a I think it's like a stock lazy river kind of deal. And there's a lot of a lot of acreage and so you go up and play poker and have a nice dinner and and then the next day you get up and fish and then you go home in the afternoon and it's a stocked river. And I've never fly fished before, but the prior to me I think everyone had always caught a fish. And I hit it over and I don't think I'll fly fish since even though I see the beauty I mean it's a spectacular sport, but it's clearly not mine.
Chris Dy:Not well. I think that your your talents are used elsewhere. Just put it that way. You probably wrote a paper about some complications during fly fishing.
Charles Goldfarb:There are other sports I feel accomplished with fishing is not one of them. Right?
Chris Dy:I feel like that that would be me. Luckily this the lake Tana como where he went is stocked with trout. So and then honestly, the fun part, one of the more fun parts for me was doing the hanging out part afterwards, and we did a cabin and cooked up some trout. It was it was really fun. So yes, trying to be more of a man of the outdoors as our partner David Brogan likes to mock me for being the great endorsement.
Charles Goldfarb:I love it. Of course, she worked in some cooking there. So I like that. I like that. So
Chris Dy:I guess we should talk about something related to hand surgery. But before we do that, we should talk about how the upper hand is sponsored by practicelink.com, the most widely used physician job search and career advancement resource.
Charles Goldfarb:Becoming a physician is hard finding the right job doesn't have to be joined practice link for free today at www.practicelink.com backslash the upper hand. Thank you to our sponsors. We enjoy this partnership. And there's lots of interactions afterwards. And I think Chris, you and I probably need to get together at some point and have some discussions. But thank you to practice link.
Chris Dy:Yes, thank you. And unbeknownst to you, Ken and I have been having some discussions, mainly because we're our social circles overlap with our children being in the same grade. So we have been talking about some ideas and I think there's some stuff that's cooking. I'll I'll leave you in as necessary. Dr. Goldfarb.
Charles Goldfarb:Thank you. I appreciate that. So I you know, as in helping to run our department, one of the things we're very conscious of and everyone is aware of is burnout. And burnout is a real thing. I think I don't want to suggest this generational or anything like that, but people are not so willing to just, you know, get beat up and and in medicine in 2023 is different than medicine was 30 years ago. There's a lot of external pressures. There's a lot of requirements. There's the EMR. There's timely note work. There's so many things hanging over us in an environment of pressure to produce that burnout is real. And maybe I'll stop there and just see what you want to add about burnout, because then I'm going to talk about one of the solutions to burnout. We're going to talk about one of the solutions to burnout.
Chris Dy:Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that burnouts always been there. It's just more talked about now, there's actually even fatigue about talking about burnout. And how it's been improperly handled, I think in a lot of ways of, let's talk about burnout, like, go do some yoga, you'll be fine. Or go to this module about burnout, you'll be fine. It's highly individual, it hits everybody at different times, I've gone through it recently. And it's just, you know, it's, it's something that you always got to deal with. And it's always going to be there. It's going to change its face and shape as you change in your stages of your life and your practice. And I think it's, you know, we're all going to have to go to the well, in terms of how to address it in different ways at different times.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, well said, love that. Love that. So there are many tactics, we're not here really to talk about burnout, I wanted to talk about community, which honestly sounds a little corny when I say it like that, but
Chris Dy:and you have to go into way too much business school. Don't even started yet.
Charles Goldfarb:yea, more to come. But community as a, I don't want to say solution to burnout, but the value of community, and the value of creating communities that engage and give you satisfaction. And I would like to propose and we may not get there, but I want to come up with seven different communities that we are involved with, and how they influence us, and not necessarily in any type of order. But let's shoot for seven communities and why they're important for us. And I know you have one you want to talk about first. And I'd love to hear it.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I find it highly interesting that you announced that you're going to business school. And now you think you're a Dale Carnegie with your Steve or Stephen Covey with your seven habits of highly effective people or your seven ways to build community. But I can start I have a couple. You know, I think one of which I mean, we talked about this on the last episode. For me, the study group, the planet study group has been a really great community. And you know, for the longest time, it was kind of this idea that was in my head. And then it was becoming reality. And but because of the pandemic, we never really got to get together. We would do some zoom meetings, and we would do meetings at you know, a SSH or ESPN. But to see that community come together, people that have shared interests, shared perspectives, varying perspectives and philosophies. But you know, similar amounts of openness and being able to discuss things, that's been really great. And I know you've had some experiences with the could registry and various study groups that you've been in. But when people have a shared mission and a shared passion, it really brings people together. It's invigorating.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, that's great. And just to remind you, this is not the first sevens episode, we did seven side gigs in seven other things. I got to I feel the need to defend myself.
Chris Dy:I think that maybe you're just inspired by the Prince song about sevens? I don't know.
Charles Goldfarb:Maybe Maybe we were talking about Prince last night. My I agree completely with that one. And that's a more of an academic approach, which certainly, you know, that is a descriptor which fits both of us. Because study group is absolutely that for me as well. Out. The next one I'll say is community centered around patients and I've had a really amazing experience this week, where I've had to patients and families that have traveled a long, long way for congenital care. A great family from Canada, who we mentioned in this podcast with reconstruction of a an older die Amelia or near hand, there was a two stage process when the child was younger, we worked on his elbow, which is doing great, and he came back this week for surgery on his mirror hand, where we remove three fingers and did a polymerization and, and great family. They flew in on Saturday from Canada. We saw them live on the wall, and I saw them on Sunday, and then operated on Tuesday and actually paid a house call to their hotel on Thursday, and they're doing great, but what's been really special is they've interacted with another family who has also traveled a long distance. I'll provide a little less information but overseas. And I think they've just found some synergies. They've seen each other randomly walking in the park. They've seen each other at the hospital. And I think it's it's it, they feel that sense of community as well. But for me, it's awesome. Like it's incredible to watch this kind of unfold. And we've had a particular family with mere hand that lives in the region, who are just out there talking about it and they've connected with different families across the world which is how build this community. And some of them have come to St. Louis for for surgery for this rare condition. But that community matters to families. And I know you, you feel that way you've experienced some of that with some of your brachial plexus work. But that's been a good one as our second community.
Chris Dy:So number two is like an organically grown patient community is added, I guess.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, it doesn't happen, let's be honest, doesn't happen all that often. But when it does, I think families find, I guess, common purpose, and it validates their decision to travel to St. Louis, let's be honest, to talk about with others,
Chris Dy:well actually segues nicely into my third one about, you know, working with patient advocacy groups. But you know, one of the things that we talked about with the United brachial plexus network is working more with them on a mentoring peer support program, they kind of have something in place, but you know, the people that volunteer there, it's a complete volunteer organization, the people that volunteer are just going to be inundated and overwhelmed with the number of people that may be interested. So we've talked about kind of gathering. And this is an initiative that's just starting, and I don't know if it's actually going to take off and where it's gonna go. But getting each of the our study sites to, you know, select a handful of patients that would then volunteer to be mentors and coaches at the UBPN. And then if we had patients that wanted to come in saying, Hey, I'm more patient of Dr. Brogan and Dr Dy's at Wash U, looking for one of their patients to be partnered with, they could go through you VPN, so kind of taking us out of the patient privacy kind of aspect of it. Because before what we would do, and I'd love to know, if you've done this is, you know, we've kind of kept an informal list of patients who, you know, have had certain conditions and had certain experiences, and I kind of informally play matchmaker. And he will ask patients like as they're towards the tail end, and they're at a good part in their recovery, saying, Hey, do you mind if I like have, if anybody is in a similar situation to you, and would you know, would want somebody to talk to can can this person call you up. And that works too. And I'd love to know, if you do that kind of informal matchmaking for your number two organically grown patient support groups. But you know, I just would like to formalize the process a bit more, and then honestly, like, take myself out of the picture, because sometimes it becomes better if they're kind of going through a different organization.
Charles Goldfarb:I think that's, that's really, really smart and really good, I have found it super hard to accomplish that goal. And with our congenital kids, families absolutely want to talk to other families. And some of that's accomplished when we have our big clinics, where they see each other in the waiting room and they talk. I use their hand therapist to play matchmaker, often, a little more than I do it myself. But you're right, I tried to keep a little list. And occasionally I'll reach out to a family I've cheated in the past has asked him if they'll talk to a family that's currently going through this. But it's a really important part of the process. And it's helpful all around, it's not, you know, it's helpful to set the right expectations. And it's helpful for comfort if surgery is in the picture. Really, really important.
Chris Dy:Is there a central organization that runs like the hand camp for you guys? Or is it just all the lift is all on on you guys?
Charles Goldfarb:The problem with congenital upper extremity anomalies is they're just so many, and they're so different. So there are organizations that are out there for support. But none that kind of fit the bill exactly as as the UBPN. UBPN does for you
Chris Dy:Yeah, they've been a very interesting organization, to we've started to partner with them for, you know, for lack of a better term, because I don't want to do a disservice to this term, but community based participatory research, you know, I'm using it in a slightly different context, working with patient advocacy group. But I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, this is a community that I want our group to make a difference with the traumatic brachial plexus injury patients, and you know, if any savvy patient who's looking for support online is going to run into the VPNs, Facebook posts and all that kind of stuff. So this is a group that we ultimately want to reach. So we've decided to, you know, for our patient education projects, and for things like this mentorship, and getting their perspectives on our research, have asked to partner with them. And it's been, you know, incredibly helpful to have them partner with us for various grants that we've written and to know that they're supporting us and for them to know what we're up to. And to know, for them to get to get feedback from them about like, is this really like important? Because, for example, at our recent planet study meeting, Chris Janney from the UBPN gave some really great perspectives that got all of us talking more about pain, which to have a group of surgeons talk about something that they honestly cannot treat reliably, is pretty remarkable, when we all kind of came to came to an informal consensus that we need to look at least study this more and think about this more. So there's a bunch of products coming down the pipeline, mainly because we got Christianity in the room and he gave some fantastic perspective.
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, that's really helpful. I would say the most prominent group in my world of congenital is called the lucky fan project and was started by a mom with an affected child. And they have been there. They're very, very good. And like you said, they're on Facebook, and they're on Instagram, sharing in creating a community. And we haven't really engaged in the way that you described. It's a really, really interesting idea.
Chris Dy:So you got to get us to number four. Now, if you want to get the seven,
Charles Goldfarb:oh, we're getting to seven? No, you get to 11. Number four, as we've talked about, I write a blog about congenital and it has created his own communities really super interesting. The I've done this for a long time. And there's not a lot of great content out there for patients and families with these varied diagnoses. And the community that's been created is around questions and answers. And every day there is, so I have to approve everything that's posted. And so there's spam, which I get rid of, there's comments from families that just aren't helpful. So I don't always post them. But the ones that are helpful, I post and usually have a short response. And it's really super interesting to watch the I write fewer blog posts like wavier blog posts now than I ever did. But the questions keep coming, because it's a living document. And there's a there's a sort of a community around it, which I think has been very gratifying to see.
Chris Dy:How has the blog, the role of the blog changed over time, because you've been doing it for what, you know, 30 years now, since now that you have an office, in all seriousness, like it's changed over the last 10 years, probably now that you have other forms of media and other platforms, including this and including, you know, speaking into kind of the more traditional routes, like how, what, how's the role of the blog changed?
Charles Goldfarb:The fact that the blog is out there has not diminished in importance, meaning, I do think there are very limited resources for families to get information written for them with at least one surgeon's perspective. My engagement with the blog has changed simply based on time and energy. And so like I said, it's more about questions and answers, rather than me writing new blog posts, but I will, once every couple months write a new blog post, but the importance of it is, is I think it's really important. The number of hits on this blog are incredible. And that's because it is an untapped or unmatched resource. So I think it's really neat.
Chris Dy:Yeah, it's it's, Hey, it's really important to me is they're trying to think about, you know, people that aren't in the congenital and adolescent, peds world, Are there similar, unmet or unidentified barriers for education that you can see somebody potentially running with?
Charles Goldfarb:Yeah, I mean, most department or private practice, or any, any website provides some degree of medical education, it gets trickier, the more specific you are. And so, you know, for someone who's a hand surgeon, who may not have a super subspecialty niche, I think most of us provide some information. Even on our website, we have information about CMC arthritis, for example, I think is really old, the community comes around conditions that are not fixable, I think and conditions, which are lifelong conditions, where, you know, understanding the pathology and understanding solutions are not straightforward. I think those are more likely to develop as I think about this.
Chris Dy:Interesting, interesting, you know, I think there's going to be lots of areas of need coming up. And obviously, the ways to fill those needs are going to change, I guess my only other contribution to this list, so you're gonna have to carry number six and seven. And thinking about it would be, you know, we've got this nice little community of brachial plexus surgeons outside of the study group. And we meet, it's, you know, we call it the tri continental nerve Congress or conference or whatever. It grew it exactly. It grew organically out of social media, so kind of, you know, a different community and I've taken a step back on social media for a number of reasons. But, you know, I think that, you know, we meet it surgeons from, from Taiwan, from the United States and from the UK, and kind of grew organically and it's really interesting, try to meet once every two or three months, and we've been able to thread the needle in terms of those three kind of timezone St. Louis, London and in Taipei, where it's morning and St. Louis, like our normal conference time, like, it's lunchtime in London, and it's dinnertime in Taipei, and we've had some really great case discussions, completely different perspectives on how to approach things, some similarities, but just different social and cultural perspectives, different technical approaches. That's been a really fun and fulfilling communion actually led to a very nice dinner at the ESPN where we got everybody together recently. So that's been fulfilling.
Charles Goldfarb:I love that a lot. You're missing the lowest hanging fruit of them all for for our community. Number six,
Chris Dy:tell boy, what is that?
Charles Goldfarb:It's one that you appreciate. You have talked to me about how meaningful this community is to you. And how when you're in meetings, and people may come up and talk about this community to you. It's the upper hand podcast community.
Chris Dy:Yes. Easy, easy for you easy for you to fill that in. Really interesting to see the podcast change over time, even though in the short amount of time that we've been doing it I guess it's been three years and changed now. But I'm sure did you have any how many podcasts groupies that you have come up to you at POSNA
Charles Goldfarb:Um, well, it's funny, you know, we have a little podcast swag, and I did use the, the podcast backpack. But thankfully, it's not a flashing light in your face, you know, description on the backpack, but I really did like the backpack. And I did have a couple of people comment to me, like maybe three or four. It wasn't, it wasn't as you say, you know, people running up and screaming and shouting and ask you to sign something. It was just nice conversation about the podcast.
Chris Dy:I think it has been great. We do have a lovely community of listeners. And you know, you guys have just started emailing more questions. You know, I will tell you that you know, but it's been really really fun to see things grow more people probably recognize your voice than your face at this point Chuck which, you know, some of us are made for TV others are not so lucky for us. So we've got the voices apparently.
Charles Goldfarb:Oh, absolutely. Um, so we need number seven, the seven community. You know, I again, not to sound corny, or sappy, I really think our hand surgery group is that community for us, because we sort of are there for one another, and we support one another. And we each have our own directions. And you know, we have alignment, you have a lot of alignment with David Brogan in particular, I have a lot of alignment with Lindley wall in particular. But we are a group of seven hopefully growing, you know, we need help we have too much volume, which is a really good problem. And I really like our group interacts.
Chris Dy:Yeah, I agree entirely. And it's interesting, because our group, personality wise, are all very different. And somehow that works, I would not have predicted that this mix of people, if you were to, you know, pick people out of a lineup, this would have been the group where it works, but it works because we're all kind of, like you said, we have our individual, academic and clinical areas of pursuit. But personality wise, we're all different. But we all tend to, you know, respect each other highly. And get along really well in conference, which I think leads to some really fun and interesting discussions when we do get together entirely.
Charles Goldfarb:Absolutely. Absolutely. So we have discussed seventh as we close this episode down, there are so many more that we have missed and I hope our listeners will chime in. We didn't talk about the hand society community, for example, where we are talking about work communities, but there are many more and I think this was kind of fun.
Chris Dy:Right and we could have talked about our you know, fellowship alumni community. I mean, that's number nine. I mean, you know, so we're just getting closer to number 10. Is to me like the chuck Goldfarb Dave Letterman top 10. Oh, I just did I don't think people know that David David who? Exactly, exactly. He's that guy's got a Netflix show. Anyway. Yes. But have a wonderful day. And thank you for sharing this with me hear your thoughts on community. Good luck,
Charles Goldfarb:coach. Have a good game today. Thanks. Hey, Chris. That was fun. Let's do it again real soon.
Chris Dy:Sounds good. Well, be sure to check us out on Twitter@Handpodcast. Hey, Chuck, what's your Twitter handle?
Charles Goldfarb:Mine is@congenitalhand. What about you?
Chris Dy:Mine is @ChrisDyMD spelled d-y. And if you'd like to email us, you can reach us at handpodcast@gmail.com.
Charles Goldfarb:And remember, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast
Chris Dy:And be sure to leave a review that helps us get the word out.
Charles Goldfarb:Special thanks to Peter Martin for the amazing music. And remember, keep the upper hand. Come back next time